Brown), who objects to the Professors' acting in the capacity of accusers and judges, I profess myself but little disposed to uphold what he seems to consider as the rights of boys. I would, for instance, not only confirm to the Professors the power of rustication, but I would encourage them to exercise it in cases of breaches of subordination, and if neces→ sary, in all cases of systematic idleness and undue attention to their studies. If the Professors were more in the habit of sending young men from the College tempora. rily, whose habits were marked by insubordination and idleness, his parents could take him home, and, placed for a time in the bosom of his family, being the object of their assiduous care, he would surely be in a situation where he would be most likely to come to a sense of his misconduct-where he would be taught the value of that destiny which he was foolishly putting to hazard, and perceive how much he was trenching on the comforts and happiness of those whom he holds most dear. After this experiment, let the young man return to the College: and if his conduct shall not appear to have undergone any improvement, let the Professors rusticate him again, and let them repeat the punish ment as often as they shall see occasion for it; if then, at the end of the time prescribed by Act of Parliament for his admission to the service, it shall appear that he is not qualified for his appointment, by having kept the necessary number of terms, and by having conformed himself to the regulations of the College, the consequences would be, that he himself would be the known instrument of his own degradation and loss of appointment, and the odium attending an act of painful severity would be removed from the Professors. I do not mean to offer this as the sole arrangement that I should wish, upon delibera. tion, to see adopted; but I am of opinion that this and other alterations might be made by the Directors, with the concur rence of the Board of Controul, to the evident improvement of the institution. (Hear!) In the course of these discussions, what is called the statute of selection has been repeatedly referred to. I am sure there is not a gentleman in this room, who holds in more perfect detestation than I do this odious statute of selection. I remember very well the period when it was proposed, and it is with a feeling of satisfaction I now state, that I then did all in my power to prevent it from passing. Those gentlemen, whether amongst the body of Directors or the Proprietors, who would still stand up for this statute, appear to me not to have well considered its effects. I will, with the leave of the Court, read the words of the first section of the statute; they are as follows: 'in cases of improper behaviour, where, from

a number of students being present, whether at lectures, hall, chapel, or elsewhere, the offenders cannot be detected, a selection shall be made of those most likely to be concerned.'-Of those most likely to be concerned ! (Shocking from several Proprietors.) Now it goes on in these terms of those most likely to be concerned, who, on their inability to clear themselves, and'-only observe what follows, and declining to give up the delinquent, shall be subject to punishment according to the nature of the offence."

Declining to give up the delinquent! there is the odious part of the statute. I say it is most disgraceful and most mischievous in its principle, because it renders a boy instrumental in the punishment of his associate, in whatever com. mon act of imprudence may have been the subject of inquiry. I say, Sir, that no college can stand the test of experience which entertains a law founded on so odious a principle. (Hear!) I have to offer now a few words on the subject of the disturbances which produced the expulsions so frequently alluded to. I regret that event on account of the young men themselves, and on account of their connexions, because I think that an appeal to that extreme punishment which irrevocably closes the prospects of the students, might have been prevented, by the seasonable application of the measure of rustication. I say now, upon the authority of information as unexceptionable as any that has been relied on in the course of this discussion, that notwithstanding all the odious character assigned to this row, there was not a young man engaged in it who would not have readily held up his hand and prevented the slightest insult from being offered to any one of the Professors: for there is amongst the boys that regard for the Professors which would restrain them, even in their wildest moments of excess, from any personal disrespect towards those gentlemen. Now, Sir, how much better would it have been, if the milder punishment of rustication had been resorted to, instead of a punishment which produces such dreadful and irrevocable effects. (Hear !) I cannot concur in the proposition of the Hon. Proprietor (Mr. Kinnaird); but I am convinced of the necessity of many alterations being made in the system of discipline pursued at the College. If these changes were effected, I am persuaded that the College would by degrees be rendered a most useful institution." (Hear!)

The Hon. D. Kinnaird rose to reply.After a discussion of such unusual length, he hoped it would not be considered disrespectful to those gentlemen who opposed his motion if he passed by several objections which had been urged against it. And he confessed, that he did not feel it

any part of his duty to answer those objections; because, as soon as he directed the attention of the Court to the real question in this case, they would see, that almost uniformly the reasoning that had been resorted to bore no allusion to the arguments he had made use of, and had little if any reference to the specific proposition which he had moved. Indeed, he should rather have said, that out of the speeches of the different gentlemen who were adverse to the motion, he could have collected arguments in greater number, and of greater force, in favour of his views, than were furnished by those who addressed the Court on the same side with himself: and, if any illustration could more powerfully than another convince the Court of the impossibility of the College going on in the present system of the impossibility of those wishes which had been expressed for the termination of all further discussions on the subject being realized-if any decided proof were wanted of the certainty that the subject would continue to be agitated, that illustration and that proof would be found in the speech of the Hon. Baronet who had just sat down. For although he (Mr. Kinnaird) had most diligently abstained from offering any opinion as to the policy of preserving the College itself, or as to the details of its economy, and still less as to the conduct of the Professors, the Hon. Baronet, unmindful of this example, and turning away from the real question before him, wandered into a discussion on the internal regulations of the College, and with a severity which was most honourable to his feelings, and most justly applied to the occasion, condemned the statute of selection, as being most odious-nay, went so far as to characterize the recent expulsions as most improper, and even impugned the discretion of the Professors which had led to that fatal measure. (Hear!) Now, what was the proposition submitted by him to the consideration of the Court? Was it not, that the Professors should not be competent to do that which the Hon. Baronet so bitterly lamented: namely, consign to ruin a young man for an act of indiscretion, to which such a punishment was wholly disproportionate? This was the import of the motion now before them. The Professors were, now upon their trial, and the Hon. Baronet would, for one, convict them of an improper exercise of discretion. As long as. that dreadful penalty, expulsion, with its ruinous consequences, existed, so long, he trusted, would there be found in that Court men to express their opinions of its cruelty and impolicy. The Court would see that it was not of the statutes of the College that he complained, but of the law of the land. It naturally followed that the discipline of the College must Asiatic Journ.-No. 101.

suffer, when the united opinions of all established, that the regulations, which were intended to maintain that discipline, had been so far abused as to be made the instruments of great and unnecessary oppression. He entirely concurred with the Hon. Baronet in opinion that the punishment of expulsion should be reserved exclusively for acts of moral turpitude; but the Court would see, that if they adopted the proposition now submitted to them, they might still continue the power of expelling in the hands of the Professors, to be exercised according to the present usage, or under new modifications, as they might think fit. Speaking upon a general view, he need not remind the Court, that expulsion was never intended as a punishment of itself. A young man at school might be told," you cannot be here, it is improper that you should remain in this school," and, if expelled, it was not meant that the measure of expulsion itself should be considered as a punishment drawn upon him by his misconduct; no, public opinion inflicted the punishment. The public would ask the grounds on which the expulsion was resorted to; and, upon a knowledge of the measure, would determine whether it should be the source of disgrace or not. Thus, the intent of an expulsion, as to the measure itself, was simply to remove a person from the school, whom, for whatever cause (it might be a good or bad one), the directors of the establishment deemed to be an unfit associate for the rest of the students. Hence, then, it was a mistake to suppose that the mere circumstance of expulsion attached disgrace to a young man; but, least of all was it meant as a punishment for ever. He was surprised to hear it maintained that expulsion should disqualify a man from entering into the service at all; because it surely did not follow that a young man who was expelled was a dishonourable person. An opinion had been expressed by an Hon. Proprietor near him, which called for some explanation on his part he had never said that the institution was granted by the Directors as a boon, in the unqualified sense in which it was understood; he had said this: that it being, in the first instance, laid down as a principle, that the young men who sought appointments in their civil service should be possessed of a certain extent of acquirements, the Company did open an institution where these necessary qualifications might be obtained; and, in that respect, the granting of such a facility might be considered as a boon. But he did also contend, that by making it obligatory in the candidates for appointments to spend a certain interval of time there, subject to all the hazards which the peculiar discipline of the College opened upon them, they did, in fact, convert this boon into a pe VOL. XVII. 4 A

nalty; because all the merit of an uniform virtuous life would be set aside by one single bad action. Several Hon. Directors and Proprietors, and especially an Hon. Gentleman, on the other side (Mr. Grant), had endeavoured to inspire the Court with an apprehension for almost the safety of their existence, in case they once called upon Parliament for its interposition. Now, he begged to know from those gentlemen, what was there so vicious in the principle on which their charter was granted, which led them to fear that any inquiry by Parliament must be followed by a deprivation of their rights. He, for one, disclaimed holding the share which he enjoyed of the interest of the Company as matter of sufferance. He did not sit there by the toleration of any power, but in virtue of an acknowledged right, the safety of which he saw no reason to suppose would be disturbed. But an Hon. Proprietor had followed up this announcement of alarm, by asking, "If Parliament does meet your wishes 30 far as to repeal this (in your opinion) obnoxious clause, are you prepared to say that it will accord with you in adopting the next step, and enact that which you propose to substitute?" But, in point of fact, there was no second proposition of the sort, there was nothing to be substituted; there was nothing asked of Parliament further than the simple repeal of one impolitic clause. At present, the College Council had the power, with the concurrence of the Board of Controul, of making regulations for the government of the College. The only thing that they had not the power of doing, was to admit a young man to an examination who was not educated at Haileybury College. That power being added to the rest that they enjoyed, left them still at liberty to make what regulations they pleased for the College. this purpose, he proposed that they should go before Parliament, after having first discussed it in public, and taken the opinion of the public upon it. When gentlemen talked about the hazards of the interference of Parliament, did they remember that it was competent to any member of either house to agitate the subject if he pleased? He begged the Court to remember the circumstances under which this clause was enacted; all that they originally did was to call upon Parliament to create some useful restraint, in order to obviate the too great facility there then was of sending young men out to India. They went before the Legislature with a self-denying ordinance in their hands, and asked them to impose it: he, for one, would not hesitate to say, that the Company derived great advantage from the measure, but it had now worked its intended effect. The necessity of an extended education to their civil servants was

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now so notorious, that no one would think of sending out a young man imperfectly prepared for the duties he undertook. All, then, they would have to ask Parliament, was no longer to continue a restrictive clause, which law and public opinion would, when once it was got rid of, never agitate again; whether or no it was better to send their civil servants to India a little earlier or a little later, according to their degree of qualifications, was a different question from saying that they I would allow no other mode of education in the Company's service, than that which was established at Haileybury. Were there no means of ascertaining a young man's competency, unless he went through a certain number of terms at Haileybury? They had heard, indeed, that his acquirements, but not his morals, could be ascertained. How did they take tutors for their children? upon general character; and would they not have the same opportunity of ascertaining the qualifications of those who were fit for their civil service in India, if the compulsory education at Haileybury were thrown open? All they had a right to ask of these young men of nineteen years of age, was he upright in his conduct, and well-grounded in his attainments; the presumption was, that the young man was upright who came before them untainted, and his attainments could be quite as well ascertained by a proper test, as it could be by the probationary residence at Haileybury. It was idle to talk of the jealousy that would be excited by the opposing examinations, for when they were conducted vivá voce and publicly, when all were subject to the same difficulties, there could be no undue advantage; indeed, they could have no better way of examining than by comparing one with the other; there could be no difficulty in obtaining a fair examination. Let the Professors of Haileybury College be the examiners, let the examination be public, with a fair admission to the tutors of the pupils who were educated elsewhere, he would pledge his life upon it that the Professors, acting upon their own responsibility, and under the controul of public opinion, would do what was right, and obviate all fair cause of complaint. The chances were great, that under a new system the College at Haileybury would flourish. The Professors could have no interest but one, and that was to make their system of education at Haileybury the best, and to challenge fair comparison, when this new stimulus was given to their exertions. The Hon. and Learned Proprietor (Mr. Grant), when he talked of his twenty-six tests, as a convincing proof of the improved state of education at Haileybury, overlooked the very material fact, that he was comparing young men who did not go out to India until they were nineteen years of

age, with those who had preceded them at seventeen years of age, a most essential difference, which was in itself sufficiently explanatory of the greater proficiency of the one in comparison with the other. Did he deny the excellence of Haileybury College? No; it was his interest to shew that the College was good, and ought to be better in his conscience, he thought it had great facilities for education, and would soon, upon the plan which he proposed, rise in general estimation; he wanted to have for it the lasting proof of public opinion, after being put to a fair and unequivocal test. Did those who opposed him mean to say that the College was as well conducted as it could be? Certainly not; for their observation must convince them that every day brought forth a remarkable improvement in the public system of education. This was not the case in the same degree some years ago; there were very few persons to be found capable of teaching the Oriental languages, and they established an effective system for imparting that instruction: but a great change had since taken place. Students might acquire a competent knowledge of the eastern languages, without going to Haileybury. Oriental teachers were rising in various part of the country; they were to be found in Edinburgh, and various other places, in spite of their exclusive system. There was no use, then, in encouraging the old monopoly, when they had the opportunity and the power of selecting, from the daily encreasing number. There was a most excellent argument used by an Hon. Proprietor (Mr. Grant), that the Company were unable, at present, to send out the supply of writers required for the civil service in India. When a sudden supply was called for, they had them not at Haileybury; so that there was no alternative, but that either the service must wait, or unfit persons must be prematurely sent out. (Hear!) The Professors, he had no doubt, would prefer to encounter competition; he certainly should, if he were one of them. As to the evening lectures which were alluded to, he took it for granted that the Professors were right; if his proposition were adopted they would stand on high ground, for then they could triumphantly appeal to the result, and say, "see how we flourish, what can you have more?" If public opinion were once brought to hear in the manner he wished upon this institution, then the Professors would have a direct and manifest interest in the passing of their pupils, and their parents would feel an affectionate gratitude towards them; all would have an equal interest in the successful issue of the trial. They must, in fact, relax their present system, and let in the improvements which had crept into other schools. All education was, in fact, mechanical; that great improvement by

which one boy was made to teach another was mechanical, and astonishing in its practical effect. It was gratifying to him to find, that those who opposed his motion, all concurred in one opinion against the College statutes. He would not say which rule was bad or which was good, let public opinion decide that. A gentleman had talked of an insurance office to be established, if the new plan were adopted, by which parents, on the payment of a premium, could insure the success of their children; he knew not how far such a fanciful theory would be realized, but he thought it would be difficult to insure over the dangerous shoals of their present system. (A laugh.) He did not mean to deny that the Court of Directors, with the concurrence of the Board of Controul, had the power of making great improvements in the way of regulation; but they had not the authority to rescind the compulsory attendance for four terms at Haileybury, which was rendered imperative by the Legislature. The Professors ought to have the power of sending away a refractory boy, and telling his parents they must try a year's superintendance of him somewhere else, and then bring him back, and see what could be made of him. (Hear!) The Professors would like the exercise of such a power, for it would take an unpleasant responsibility from their shoulders, and enable them the better to maintain discipline, without finally affecting the ultimate prospects of the indi vidual. In taking the part which he had done, he was not actuated by any unfriendly feeling towards the College, but quite the reverse. In his view, they would have the Professors daily on their trial by the improved system, in the way most agreeable to the principles and feelings of all honest men-the certainty of obtaining and deserving public approval. He would substitute this safer, more powerful, searching, mild, lenient controul, instead of the bad, useless, painful, and inefficient one which gave rise to these discussions. He hoped that this discussion would be the last, and, in the name of the Professors, he particularly asked for the change. With regard to the danger of going before Parliament, he looked upon it as purely chimerical, as almost childish; he had no reason to admire, with particular attachment, the House of Commons as at present constituted; but to insinuate that they had something to fear, some ground of apprehension and alarm, from taking such a remedial application as this into Parliament, was most absurd; such fears were idle, and unworthy of them. He felt a great responsibility when he earnestly pressed them to take the course which he recommended, for he had a good deal at stake, and knew, that if the Legislature did not sanction their application, he should

He

have then brought down upon himself a great deal of blame. He was prepared to meet this responsibility, and to rely, in this instance, that the wisdom of the Legis lature would correct what was found wrong. He begged all through to be understood as speaking merely against the inherent evils of their present system. The Hon. Proprietor in the spectacles (Mr. Z. Macaulay) had said, he heard no charge made against the conduct of the College. (Mr. Kinnaird) had certainly made none, for his argument was founded upon the existence of an inherent evil, which no management could remove, and which could only be corrected by an appeal to the Legislature. Were these expulsions, from year to year, no fault? were these admitted discussions and reports amongst the Court of Directors, and the non-application of a remedy, no proofs of evil? The Directors knew they were, they could not contradict him; they also knew that the Legislature, at their suggestion, passed this compulsory clause, and passed it through inadvertency, never thinking at the moment of the injury it was calculated to inflict. He would ask them, who could pause for a moment with this experience before their eyes? Would they have it stated, that in the year 1824 they were so bigotted to the name of "four terms," that they could not carry on a system of education without it. Why, the young men at Portsmouth were sometimes put a year in advance, after passing' a certain examination with éclat. If one boy could do in one term that which cost another two, why was he to be kept to idle through the additional time? It was obvious, that in all general tests they must establish a comparatively low criterion, and say, that none shall go out without having a certain qualification. Could they place a young man of quick conception in a worse position, than by binding him down to skim over light duties, and deny him the advance to which his greater intellect entitled him? He recollected many instances of wildness, associated with the greatest facility of acquirements; the latter came with the utmost rapidity, then followed, in abundance, the spare time, and with it the desire of distinction in all kinds of scrapes. (A laugh.) Again and again he must urge, that nothing could remove the inherent evil of which he complained but an application to Parliament. All these results were foreseen by Lord Grenville, at the time he made his celebrated speech in the discussion for the renewal of their charter. That Noble Lord then gave his able and eloquent reasons why, if he had a son destined for their service, he should prefer educating him elsewhere than at Haileybury. Lord Grenville altogether disapproved of the compulsory period (two years) of education; it was produc tive of no good, and it obviously retarded

the service but they had been told, this monopoly of education created a durable fellowship, that when fresh supplies went out to India, they saw and were hailed by their old colleagues. Really, when gentlemen boasted of this ready access to society, they seemed to forget that, in India, hospitality was so notorious as to be a universal virtue. One would think, from the value set upon this intercourse of society, that these young men were going forth to a desert, instead of to a community where they were received with open arms, and immediately indulged with every luxury. The Honourable and Learned Proprietor (Mr. Grant) had said, that the real question for discussion was, had the College answered, in any fair degree, the intention for which it was instituted? He (Mr. Kinnaird) must deny that to be the question. The College had done great good; there was some education now, there had been none before. What he asked was, had it answered the high anticipations which ought to be formed of a great institution? Was it not capable of being made more efficient? Then the Hon. and Learned Gentleman asked, was it probable the proposed change would effect an improvement? All he meant to say was, that it would certainly do one thing, it would remove an inherent evil. (Hear!) The Professors would then, when they sent a boy home, be putting themselves and their system upon trial; and they would naturally feel the greatest anxiety to explain and justify (as he had no doubt they would) their act. The first inference always drawn against a school, from which boys in great numbers are expelled, is, that the system is bad, not the boys. (Hear!) The private letters of young men who had been educated at Haileybury had been produced in the course of this discussion; he objected to such evidence, for all knew the almost filial attachment and fond partiality which young men carried with them for the places of their education. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had appealed to the verification of his prediction of the advantages which he had anticipated seven years ago from this College; it was a very safe prediction, when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman knew that they had made no arrangements for the adequate education of their civil servants before. Then he went on to say, that he had ascertained, that the prize students at Haileybury were afterwards the most eminent among their civil servants in India. Why to be sure they must: the best must be always the best; when they tolerated only one system of education, the best there must be the best any where else.. But after all their provident care, it appeared that some sad fellows found their way out to India. (A laugh.) Now, he might as well impute their misconduct to the College, as ascribe the improvement