Lord Thurlow. before waited for the difcretion of the counfel in vain, and was confirmed in his fufpicions, that their going so much at length into a recital circumftantially and verbally, of matters already in print, of matters of public notoriety, and which neither the bill, nor those who were friends to it, pretended to difpute, was done for the purpofe of protracting the paffing of the bill; he fhould endeavour to fave the learned gentlemen at the bar, and their Lordships fome trouble, by moving that they be reftrained from going into proofs of the Carnatic's having been evacuated, and peace being eftablifhed in it, as it was a fact univerfally admitted, Lord Thurlow differed entirely with the learned Lord respecting the evidence that had already been produced. He conceived the counsel had acted with the greatest propriety; their clients had employed them to do what? only to refcue them from a general imputation laid againft them in a bill, for it brought no fpecific charge. How was it poffible for them to defend themfelves, otherwife than by producing, in the firft inftance, authentic documents to their right, and afterwards, by a fair ftatement of their transactions and circumftances, to prove they had not abufed that right. He agreed with the learned Lord, that fome part of the evidence which had been produced at the bar might as well have been omitted; but he was far from faying, that held good with regard to the difpatches that were to prove that peace was established in India; and for this plain reason - the preamble of the bill ftated, that by the mifmanagement of the Company, they had brought themselves almoft to a bankrupt ftate, and that it required the immediate interpofition of Government to fave them from ruin. Now if they could adduce evidence to prove they had not inifmanaged, but that their finances here were not defpicable, and their fituation abroad in a flourishing ftate, furely the preamble of the bill could not be founded in fact, and that plea of neceffity, which had been fo ftrenuoufly dwelt upon, did not exift, for then there could be no neceffity for this measure. Ay, but then, fays the learned Lord, if the bill does not pass immediately, which is folely for the regulation of the Company's affairs at home, it will totally prevent gentlemen from failing in proper time to take upon them their appointments in India. What advantage was intended by that argument, he was entirely at a loss to comprehend: but even admitting the Company were actually the culprits they were faid to be, would would their Lordships have it recorded in their journals, that they had refused to give them an opportunity to establish their innocence? Should it be faid, the conftitution of this country allowed an individual, where his property was concerned, to appear by counfel at the bar of that Houfe, and give his reafons why they fhould not proceed; and yet, when an act was brought in to deprive a corporate body of their charter, and to inveft their property in the hands of strangers, their counfel fhould be checked, and restrained from producing that evidence which, in all likelihood, would prove their affairs were in fo excellent a train, that it would not be in the power of mifmanagement, in the power of whoever this bill might appoint, to put them in diforder. If the learned Lord had thought the counfel were guilty of mif-fpending their Lordships' time, why did he not ftate his fufpicions fooner? Why did he leave it till peace was mentioned, and proofs were offered of its being ratified, with the authorities, and that hoftilities were ceafed in the Carnatic? These were circumftances that would not, moft certainly, act very forcibly in criminating the Company for mifmanagement, or for having brought themfelves on the verge of ruin; perhaps it was upon this principle they had been objected to. When parties were admitted to the bar of that Houfe, their cafe would be peculiarly hard, if any noble Lord could get up and reftrain the counfel from what might very likely be the moft material part of his evidence. Could fuch a meafure be called juftice? If not, should it be faid that the firft court of judicature in this kingdom gave fanction to it? He trufted not. The people's rights ought to be held facred; and it would be highly fubverfive of those rights, in his opinion, to punish where no delinquency was proved, to cenfure where every approbation was due. The bufinefs before your Lordships is of fuch a complicated and critical defcription, that every fpecies of information will be found indifpenfable to a fair apprehenfion of it. And inftead of blaming counfel for giving you too much, your Lordships ought to thank them for the pains they have taken to contract it into a proper form, and prefent it at your Lordships' bar under a clear and connected point of view. They might, inftead of a few papers, not tedious or complicated, they might have infifted on reading five hundred volumes this, however, they had relinquished for fuch an abftract of the whole, as may not interfere either with the patience or the ordinary mode of the House. The H 2 learned LordLoughborough. learned Lord had dwelt much upon the idea, that it was a wifh with fome perfons to protract the bill. Rumours may be propagated of fuch a tendency, as to fruftrate all the purpoles of the bill. Who would have expected an observation of this fort from the learned Lord? Miniftry ought to be the laft at least, to hazard fuch furmifes. Who knows not how induftriously their creatures are occupied in this kind of work? For his part, he thought it of too much confequence to be paffed haftily through that Houfe. He could wish their Lordships to confider it as he did, as a bill of the utmoft confequence and greatest importance; then would they examine minutely into every argument that could be adduced, and determine on facts, not on general implication. The papers, it was likewife faid, were generally known; they were in every body's hands. This, to be fure, in a great measure, he could not deny; for he fuppofed their Lordships were as well acquainted how they came in every body's hands as he was; a gentleman had fent them to him, and he doubted not that very few of their Lordships had been omitted. It was, however, very fingular to him, that the learned Lord, who certainly was an ornament to his profeffion, fhould object to papers as evidence, because they were printed; this was a new doctrine to him: but, however, the papers that were now offered, and were objected to, were not printed, they were not in every body's hands, for they had not long been received, therefore they certainly might be admitted without giving offence to the noble Lord on that head, and prove fome information to the House, as they would, perhaps; there did not exift that preffing neceffity for paffing this bill, as had been held forth in another place: it is therefore hoped your Lordships will beware how you proceed. Violate not the rules of the Houfe, in complaifance to a measure which originates in an open violation of whatever is most facred and dear to Englishmen. Refpect your own dignity, and the privilege of Parliament. Forms are the hedges of the conftitution. The moment these are broken down, that is loft. Lord Loughborough replied, and cleared bimself from the ridicule pointed at him by Lord Thurlow, while he endeavoured to refute much of his Lordship's reafoning, by fhewing it was deduced from falfe premifes. With regard to the little hour that the noble and learned Lord had held up as fo mere a trifle, that was not the matter, he minded not one little hour, nor two, nor three, nor four, but he dreaded thofe hours being lengthened into weeks, and that the bill would by that means be paffed too late to do any good. He ftated to their Lorships that there was another bill, a part of the fame plan yet to come from the other house, and shewed that it was highly important that the bill then before their Lordships, if it paffed at all, fhould pafs with as little delay as poffible. The fhips for India must be ready to fail fome time in February, and many things befides the mere paffing of the bills were neceffary. With a view of that event, whatever the noble and learned Lord near him (Lord Thurlow) might think of rumours, he mentioned it as a fact, that a rumour was circulated, and had reached his ear fince he came to that Houfe, that the counsel had been actually inftructed and enjoined by their clients, to protract the time by every poffible manoeuvre in their power. He therefore had deemed it his duty to apprize their Lordships of a circumftance which it became them to treat as it deTerved. This objection, however, was founded on the nature of the bill, as independent alike of whatever might be the prefent ftate of India. It was for thefe, and other reafons that he ftated, that he wished to have as much of their Lordships' time in hearing evidence as he could, and with a view to object to the Eaft-India Company's producing any evidence that they thought material to their cafe; nay, fo far was he from wifhing this, that he had expreflly declared, he was ready to admit all they were proceeding to prove, which they had opened to the Houfe, and that for the beft reafon in the world, viz. because he believed no man alive had the leaft doubt of the Carnatic being evacuated, and peace being reftored there. The Duke of Richmond defired the queftion might be read TheDuke of as foon it was reduced to writing. put Richmond. The Earl of Mansfield left the woolfack, and faid, he The Earl of hoped the Houfe would come to an agreement, without Mansfield. ting the question that had been moved. In cafes where a bill depending materially affected the property of individuals, it was generally ufual with the Houfe, to fhew thofe individuals every indulgence poffible, and to ufe as much delicacy in paffing fuch a bill as the nature of the cafe would admit. The prefent bill was extremely fevere on the petitioners at their Lordships' bar, and therefore he had imagined their Lordships had hitherto fhewn fo much patience. A great deal of the evidence already produced, he was inclined to think Ld. Lough. borough. Richmond. think might have been fpared, but what the counfel were now about to produce, appeared to him to be the most material for them to fhew of any that they could offer; with regard to delay-affected delay ought to be avoided, but such delay as was neceffary to do the bufinefs in a becoming manner, fhould certainly not be avoided; he hoped, therefore, the noble and learned Lord would wave his motion, and that the House would indulge the counfel, and permit them to proceed. The queftion on which the Houfe was called to decide, would, in his Lordship's apprehenfion, be materially affected by that fact. He owned, however, that the bill deferved immediate inveftigation, and that too much dispatch could hardly be given to it, for the reafons the learned Lord had affigned. But his Lordfhip imagined that much unneceffary delay would be occafioned by the present motion. He could therefore have wifhed, his Lordfhip had not on that account proposed them, and that the counfel had been allowed to give them in his own way. What referred to the Carnatic he prefumed would not be long, as he apprehended it was only a letter from Lord Macartney, afcertaining the perfect evacuation of that country. Lord Loughborough faid, though not affected by any thing yet advanced, he was willing, as far as his fingle voice went, to forego, and to give the counfel whatever indulgence the House might think proper to grant them. He had no diffi culty to comply with advice that came from a quarter he fo much refpected. His Lordship therefore, after affigning a few reasons for fo doing, declared, that with permiffion of their Lordships, he would withdraw his motion; and, as far as it depended on him, permit the indulgence defired. The Duke of The Duke of Richmond would not fuffer the matter to pass fo. His Grace faid, what the petitioners claimed was a right, and not an indulgence, Every fubject had a right to petition Parliament against a bill attacking his property, and it was a debt of justice in the prefent cafe, and to be paid them as fuch, and not granted as a favour or a boon, which the House had a difcretional power to grant or refuse, and he wished noble Lords, in throwing out general things, would never fuffer any language or phrafeology to escape them not ftrictly conftitutional. In his opinion, the juftice of the Houfe, as well as the franchises of the fubject, was intimately connected with the queftion before their Lordfhips. And thefe, in his mind, were objects much more valuable than all India. What colour would this be to pri vileges |