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Parliamentary Debates

During the Fifth Session of the Fourth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the Kingdom of Great Britain the Twenty-first, appointed to meet at Westminster, the First Day of November, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Ten, in the Fifty-first Year of the Reign of His Majesty King GEORGE the Third.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Friday, February 22, 1811. CATHOLICS OF IRELAND-MR. WELLESLEY POLE'S CIRCULAR LETTER.] The Marquis of Lansdowne rose for the purpose of calling their lordships' attention to the documents, which lay upon the table, and had been produced in consequence of a motion made on a former day by his noble friend (the earl of Moira,) whose absence he regretted upon this occasion. The documents which had been produced as a ground for issuing the Circular Letter to the sheriffs and chief magistrates of the principal towns throughout Ireland,*

*The following is a copy of the said Circular:

CIRCULAR LETTER, Written by the command of his grace the Lord Lieutenant to the several Sheriffs and Chief Magistrates of the principal Towns throughout Ireland.

"Sir:-It being reported, that the Roman Catholics in the county of are to be called together, or have been called together, to nominate or appoint persons 23 representatives, delegates or managers, to act on their behalf as members of an unlawful Asssembly, sitting in Dublin, and calling itself "The Catholic Committee," you are required, in pursuance of the provisions of an Act of the 33rd of the king, chap. 29, to cause to be arrested, and to commit to prison (unless bail shall be given), all persons within your jurisdiction, (VOL. XIX.)

prohibiting the meetings of the Catholics, were now before them but could their lordships be satisfied with the explanation of the conduct of the government of Ireland? When his noble friend had brought the subject some days since under their lordships' consideration, and had asked for information respecting the grounds and motives, upon which the government of Ireland had acted, on having recourse to so harsh, so violent, and so intemperate a measure, what was the answer which had then been returned? Why, that the order for putting in force the convention bill in Ireland, did not emanate from the Prince Regent, did not emanate from the British government, but had actually emanated

who shall be guilty of giving or having given, or of publishing or having published, or of causing or having caused to be given or published any written or other notice of the election and appointment, in any manner, of such representive, delegate, or manager, as aforesaid; or of attending, voting, or acting, or of having attended, voted, or acted, in any manner, in the choice or appointment of such representative, delegate, or manager. And you are to communicate these directions, as far as lies in your power, forthwith, to the several magistrates of the said county of

"N. B. Sheriffs are to act under the warrant of magistrates, in cases where the crime has been committed.

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from the Irish government, and that under circumstances which, in the minds of ministers, seemed to afford complete satisfaction, and fully to justify the propriety of the measure which had thus suddenly and unexpectedly been taken. It had even been acknowledged by ministers that they knew nothing of the measure nor of the necessity that led to it, until the accounts had been received from Ireland, of the measure having been actually put in force, and yet after this denial of knowing any thing of the matter, and after justifying the Irish government on the plea of the necessity of the case and the urgency of the occasion, which called for a measure of such harshness, what information had they yet laid before the House in explanation of such conduct, but a letter dated the 1st of January, purporting to be written by Mr. Edward Hay, a person who styled himself Secretary of the Catholic Committee in Dublin ? Upon the appear

* Copy of a printed Letter from Edward Hay, styling himself "Secretary to the General Committee of the Catholics in Ireland, sitting in Dublin," to the Catholics in the different Counties throughout Ireland :-Transmitted by His Grace the Lord Lieutenant, on the 12th February, 1811, and received on the 14th instant. "Sir;-I am directed by the General Committee of the Catholics of Ireland, to solicit your particular attention on the present occasion.

"The Committee being entrusted with the petition of the Catholic body, feel it incumbent on them to state to you, their conviction of the imperative necessity of an increase of their numbers, so that there may be managers of the petition connected with every part of Ireland. It is highly desirable, that the Committee should become the depository of the collectiye wisdom of the Catholic body; that it should be able to ascertain, in order to obey, the wishes, and clearly understand the wants, of all their Catholic fellow subjects.

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This is the more requisite at the present moment when there appears to be so near a prospect of complete emancipation; and the Committee are convinced, that their emancipation can now be retarded, only by criminal apathy or neglect amongst the Catholics themselves.

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They beg leave to suggest to you, the propriety of appointing ten managers

ance of that Letter, which they now con-zi ceived to contain cause of such alarm, andr matter of such peril, did they immediately adopt any measure to allay that alarm, or prevent that danger? No such thing. It was only on the 12th of February, 43 days subsequent to the writing of that Letter, that any notice seems to have been taken of it. Yet that Letter of Mr. Hay, the secretary of the Irish Catholic Committee was the only document yet before the House, and the only ground adduced to justify the issuing of the letter addressed, by Mr. Pole, Secretary to the Irish government, to the magistrates and sheriffs, of the different counties in Ireland. What, must their lordships think of such a justification of such a measure, and of the period of time allowed to elapse between the publication of Mr. Hay's Letter and the issuing of Mr. Pole's Circular to which it was said to have given rise? Were, then, the noble lords opposite, in possession of

of the petition in your county. There are

now

survivors of the persons who were delegates in the year 1793: these persons are already constituent members of the Committee; and as such, managers of the petition; so that you have to ap point only additional managers.

"The Committee desire to add, that by the law, as it now stands, no species of delegation or representation can be suf fered to take place; nor can any person, without a gross violation of the law, be a representative' or delegate, or act under any name as a representative or delegate. Engaged, as we are, in a struggle for legal and constitutional rights, it is our duty, as well as our inclination and decided determination, not to violate the spirit, nor even the letter of the law. It is, at the same time, to be observed, that the law to which we allude, does not interfere with the subject's undoubted right to petition parliament; nor of course with the only method by which so large a body as the Catholics of Ireland could concur in forwarding a petition; namely, by leav ing the management of it in the hands of a few persons, who deserve and possess their confidence.

"And the Committee cannot refrain, on this occasion, from calling to your recollection the words of that celebrated champion of loyalty and religion, Edmund Burke, relative to the Irish Catholics : Your enemies are embodied, what be'comes of you if you are only individuals?'

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no better justification of the conduct ofter of the Secretary of the Catholics to be the Irish government for putting in force annexed to that of the Secretary of State an act of which, whatever might be sup- for Ireland, that it would be found that posed to be its necessity, when it was first the Catholics meditated an intentional and deemed proper and expedient to adopt it, systematic violation of the laws of their had been allowed to lie dormant for at country. He now called upon that noble least 13 years? During that interval, that secretary to furnish any document which law appeared to have been violated in could give them that information, The many instances, particularly by the meet- Letter on the table did not contain one pa. ing of what was called the Orange Lodge, ragraph which could lead to such a con.. but no alarm seemed to be felt at these inclusion; but breathed throughout a spirit of stances of its violation, till 43 days after the publication of Mr. Hay's letter, when it was judged expedient to revise and put that odious law in force against the Catholics. The great and leading objection to this act of the Irish government, and which was so ably stated by his noble friend (the earl of Moira) on a former day, was that which applied to the mode and the time in which it was put in execution. The statute had, as he before stated, laid dormant for more than 13 years; meetings of the Roman Catholics had regularly been held; the government had on every occasion been privy to those meetings so held, and inasmuch as they permitted them, the Catholics were naturally led to believe and expect they they received their sanction and acquiescence. Far should it be from him to countenance and support what would be dangerous to the constitution: if any set of men should form themselves into a convention, which had for its object the violation of the law, by giving to themselves a permanent existence, he would be one of the first to set his face against the existence of any such as sembly, because their existence would be incompatible with that of the constitution. But where was this spirit to be discovered in the Catholics of Ireland; where was such an intention made manifest? The noble secretary indeed, had said on a former occasion, when he wished the Let

"The Committee does not presume to interfere with the mode in which you shall think fit to nominate those managers of the petition; save that it must not be by any election or appointment to represent any person or persons, or any district or place whatsoever. They moreover beg leave suggest the propriety of expedition; and request that you will have the goodness to reply to this letter, and to state your sentiments on this subject, adding, if it shall so please you, the names of persons, whom you conceive most fit to manage the petition in your county.

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respect and submission to the laws of their country; the observance of which it strongly inculcated in those, to whom it was addressed. No ground, then, was shewn for this severe measure to a whole body of subjects respectable on every ac count; a measure, which their loyalty and general conduct rendered wholly unnecessary, and which could not be in unison with the known sentiments and feelings of the illustrious person who had taken upon him the arduous task of exercising the royal authority. The calling this dormant statute, therefore, into force after so many meetings of a similar description had been permitted, was peculiarly unbecoming, not only from the time and the manner in which it was done, but from the inconsiderate haste and rashness with which it was attended. Though 43 days had been suffered to elapse without any notice being taken of Mr. Hay's letter, yet the urgency of the occasion and the necessity of the measure became suddenly so great that time was not given to consult with the government of England on its propriety, or even to take the pleasure of the Prince Regent respecting it, who was just then taking upon himself the reins of government. What were the feelings and opinions of his Royal Highness, on this question, there could not be much doubt; nor could his disposition in favour of the Catholics of Ireland be well called in

"In appointing those managers, the committee respectfully solicit your particular attention to the many advantages to be derived from naming managers, whose avocations require, or leisure permits their permanent or occasional residence in Dublin, where the ultimate arrangements, as to the petition, can best be made. I have further to observe to you, that all the noble lords who constitute the Catholic peerage, are already managers of the petition. I have the honour to be, your, &c. (Signed)-EDWARD HAY, Sec."

Dublin, No. 4, Capel Street, Jan. 1, 1811.

He

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question. . He should ground nothing, I of Mr. Hay was produced in consequence of however, on what were the well known or a motion of his own. He felt much difficulty supposed opinions of his Royal Highness. at the present moment in giving farther inSure he was that, on all occasions his formation: but he had given their lordRoyal Highness would feel that the hand ships a positive record, which proved the of government should be firm and ener- deliberate attempt at the violation of law, getic, particularly under all the circum- and was inconsistent with a due regard to stances of the present moment; but his the public tranquillity. He had been misRoyal Highness would also never forget, taken when it was supposed to have been that firmness did not consist in rashness, in- said by him, that the body of the Catholics temperance, and violence; and under what meditated a systematic violation. 21 other colour could the measure which had meant no such thing against that numerous been so unadvisedly taken in Ireland be and respectable body; and he was sure fairly considered? The noble Secretary of that the measures intended to be preventState had indeed affirmed, that there was ed, were as much against the sense of the discovered among the Catholics of Ireland most respectable part of the body of the a deliberate, systematic intention of violat- Catholics, as they were against that of ing the law. Had the noble earl adduced the Protestants, and that they deprecated any information upon which to ground the adoption of them equally. He besuch a charge, he would be among the lieved, in his conscience, that the majority first to acknowledge the propriety of the of the Catholic body were loyal and well steps that had been taken. But the only affected to the connection with England; information yet before their lordships to and that they did not desire to be reprewarrant the assertions of the noble earl, sented in the way proposed by a few of and justify the conduct of the Irish Go- their number. As to the case of the prevernment, consisted in the single letter sent committee sitting in Dublin, being then on their lordships' table. Could such also a violation of the law, he would not information justify such a measure, espe- enter into the question, whether it had cially under all the circumstances of the been wise or not, to allow that body to moment, when it was put in force? He continue their sitting as they had hitherto was convinced it could not. He should done; but whether this were wise or untherefore move for the production of otherwise, he could not be persuaded, that it papers, by which further and more satis-would have been wise to overlook the atfactory light might be thrown upon the tempt to carry such a meeting to the great business. If the noble earl should rest his objection to his motion, on the impropriety of giving publicity to such information, he would be satisfied with having it referred to a secret committee; but if that proposal did not meet the noble earl's approbation, he should move, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, praying that he would be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before the House copies or extracts of all dispatches addressed to, or received from his excellency the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, respecting the Circular Letter addressed by Mr. Secretary Pole to the Sheriffs and Magistrates of Ireland."

The Earl of Liverpool felt it to be his duty to oppose the present motion, because no sufficient grounds had been laid for agreeing to it; and because the information already on the table was sufficient to answer the object of the motion made by a noble lord the other night. That noble lord's motion was confined to the production of a single document, and the letter

and undefined extent proposed, and to suf fer it to assume, as it necessarily would, an intirely new character. Were his opi nions decidedly favourable to the total removal of the remaining disabilities to which the Catholics were subject, he should still entertain his present sentiments on this particular subject. Indeed, there was no greater grievance for the Catholics, than the existence of such a body professing to be the representatives of all the Catholics. There had been no attempt whatever intended or made to prevent the right of petitioning, according to the forms of the constitution: but the very usage of their lordships' House forbad the receiving of petitions except from individuals subscribing for themselves, or from bodies, which had a legal, corporate existence. An instance of this sort had even recently, occurred in the case of a petition professing to come from the Lord Mayor and the Livery of the city of Lon don, The petitions intended to be pre sented by the Catholics had been already prepared and agreed to, and therefora

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there was no ground for meeting on that subject. Consideráble inconveniencies might accrue from the production of farther papers. He was not aware that any farther information was at all necessary. The letter on the table shewed clearly the intention to violate the laws, and expose to danger the public tranquillity.

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Lord Grenville could not but offer a few observations on the present occasion. Earl Grosvenor considered it right to The noble Secretary of State, who had keep clear altogether of the merits of the risen to answer the speech of his noble question on which these proceedings had friend, did any thing but answer the more occurred, and thought the only question prominent points of that speech; and, inbefore them was, whether the strong steps deed, in avoiding to do so, he acted wisely. taken by the Irish government could be His noble friend pressed for an explana justified. It was certainly possible that tion of the reasons which induced the Irish they might; but there was nothing on government so long to have delayed the their table to prove it, and they could not putting in force of the Convention Act, come to such a conclusion without the ad- if the Letter from the secretary of the Cavantage of farther and more particular in- tholic Committee was really the cause of formation. Notwithstanding the recent their resorting to a measure so rash and assertions of the friends of ministers, and intemperate. He, however, pressed in the statements so often made in some of vain for that explanation. It was therethe public prints, supposed to speak the fore natural to conclude, that some other sentiments of government, that Ireland was grounds existed in justification of such a in a state of perfect tranquillity, the pub- measure; and a knowledge of those lication of this strong and irritating letter grounds it was the object of his noble shewed that Ireland was very far from friend's motion to obtain. In expressing being in such a situation. After a lapse of his decided disapprobation of this rash and years, he should have considered the intemperate proceeding, he desired not to Convention Act, passed at a disturbed pe- be considered as prepared or disposed to riod, as obsolete. At that time, acts of vindicate the cause of any description of considerable strictness were passed in this persons, who meant to act in an illegal country, and which he believed were jus- | manner. On the contrary, he would altified by circumstances: yet they were ways do his utmost to ensure obedience to subsequently done away here, and he the law and if it could be shewn that should think that the same step should this measure was the only, or the ready have taken place in Ireland. It was cu- and natural mode of prevention of an unrious to learn that ministers should have no lawful meeting, he should agree to it. If knowledge of the subject, when they must the Catholics had any intention of esta have known that the Letter of Mr. Hay blishing a permanent convention to reprehad been written for five weeks. It was sent them, he should be sensible of the curious that Mr. Pole left this country dangers of such an attempt, and would be only on the 3d of February, and was not the first to resist it. But of this there was instructed in any respect on this point; no proof: as little was there any proof of but immediately on arriving in Ireland, any kind effort on the part of the Irish gopublished this letter without any commu- vernment to admonish them of the dan nication with the government here. He gers of such an attempt, to make allow might suppose they thought, that if a com- ances for the irritation they must feel, at munication had been made here, the seeing themselves excluded from an equal Prince Regent might have deemed a dif- participation of the privileges enjoyed by ferent course more proper to pursue. He their Protestant fellow subjects; an exclusaw no ground in the proposed meeting to sion which must naturally prove so galling excite additional alarm, except as to the to freemen. Such forbearance and such addition to the numbers of the meeting. admonition, would have only been the act That was not great, compared with the of a mild, beneficent, and paternal gonumbers of the Catholics, and was not a vernment: but such a disposition was not sufficient ground, taken alone. It must to be expected from the noble lords op therefore be coupled with circumstances posite; though they might well suppose which were not to be disclosed to them. it to be the disposition of the illustrious

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