This was merely to repeat a measure Mr. Tierney saw no occasion for any increase of our force destined for foreign service, till the house should be informed what was the nature of the foreign service in which they might be employed. No case had been made out by the noble lord of any deficiency existing in the disposable force of the country, which rendered a measure such as that now proposed, ne last time, however, the legislature adopted this measure, they determined not only to replace by ballot, the loss sustained in the militia regiments, by the volunteering into the line, but to raise an excess; making in the whole three fourths of the full establishment, viz. 36,000 in England, and 9,000 in Ireland. Now, however, he thought it only necessary to propose to cover the transfer from the militia, for which purpose only half of the establishment would be required, viz. 24,000 men, instead of 36,000. He apprehended that it would be impossible to get rid of the ballot altogether; but still an effort might be made to obtain men by a milder process, and to relieve the counties from the great pressure which they had been exposed to formerly. For this purpose he shouid propose that a great part, if not the whole, of the expence of raising the men should be defrayed not by the counties, but by the public. He should propose that the pub-cessary; and he conceived that before the lic should pay the bounty for enlisting, not altogether as high a bounty as would be given for enlisting for more general service, but what he thought would be a sufficient bounty-about ten guineas. If the voluntary enlistment did not succeed, and the country should be compelled to have recourse to a ballot, it was his intention, in that case, to propose that the bounty of ten guineas should be given to the ballotted man as a bounty, if he should serve in person, or to assist him in procuring a substitute. When the country gentlemen and militia colonels should find that the expence was to fall upon the public, and not upon the counties, he had great hopes that their local exertions in support of the measure would be more effectual. Ile was very sanguine in believing, that by this means a sufficient number of men might be got without any material or very sensible pressure upon the country. If, however, his hope was disappointed, and a ballot should be absolutely necessary, even in that case the pressure of the ballot upon individuals would be much diminished by the assistance which they would receive from the public purse. -He was satisfied that this measure would not interfere in any material degree with the regular recruiting, as it was his intention to propose that the bounties to the Militia should be lower than those for the Line. He was also convinced, there was not a man in the country who would not cheerfully submit to the ballot, if the exigencies of the country required it. VOL. XII. house gave their consent to it, it was their duty to enquire what had become of the great force placed in the noble lord's hands two years ago, at which time he had himself declared that the country stood in a proud situation, and that its military strength was adequate to every exertion that could be required from it. What deficiency had arisen in that large disposable force the noble lord had himself termed sufficient, neither he (Mr. T.) nor any man in the house knew. Before he could consent to impose upon the people the additional burthen which this measure would create, he must be satisfied, not only that a further regular force was necessary, but that the hands into which the disposition of that force was to be entrusted were equal to the confidence reposed in them. At present, all he knew on the subject was, that the army had been most shamefully wasted by the noble lord. Without meaning to cast the slightest reflection on our gallant officers, whose skill and valour entitled them, on the contrary, to the highest praise, he was convinced that the house and the country must deeply feel that the military power of England under the auspices of the noble lord had experienced a more disgraceful discomfiture than any to which it had ever hitherto been exposed. He made these observations on the present occasion at this early stage of the business, to guard himself from being supposed to assent to the proposition, that his majesty's ministers had a claim on the country to have a further M. force placed at their disposal, without having first accounted for the way in which they had employed that already entrusted to them. ter the disasters which had been sustained, he asked, whether even the noble lord could mean to send another expedition to Spain to turn back the tide of success of Bonaparte's army? Or did he mean to send another expedition to Sweden, to return as the last did, the ridicule of the world ? He hoped, however, that if another ex Sir T. Turton thought our army had not been treated as it deserved, and he would not consent to the drawing of a single sixpence out of the pockets of his constituents for the purpose of adding to our dis-pedition was sent to Sweden, it would not posable force, till he knew how the dispoable force we already possessed had been managed. Had they not last year voted 120,000 men for general disposable service? How galling, then, the reflection, that only 28,000 could be collected when we went to meet a numerous enemy in a country, which we were so much interested in defending! The army had unquestionably displayed its wonted valour, and would, he was sure, always do its duty; but it was a melancholy consideration that this valour had only been sufficient to secure a retreat, not to reap the fruits of a victory. It did not appear, that more than 36,000 men had at any time been employed in Spain and Portugal; and he trusted that they should never again hear of an expedition of that description being sent to oppose the numerous armies of France. In every stage, therefore, of the present bill he should oppose it, and would not agree to any further increase of the army, until it should be shewn what had been done with the army voted last session. Under this impression he had come down to the house to vote against the measure in the first instance. be a hostile expedition against that country. He thought it absolutely necessary for that house, as representatives of the nation, to make a substantial inquiry into the conduct of the last campaign in Portugal, into the expedition to Sweden, and into the conduct of ministers with respect to Spain, before they should agree to the measure. He could not see why the noble lord wanted more disposable troops, or to what part of the world he could send them, with advantage to the country. He considered that in the present situation of affairs in Europe there was no point to which an expedition could be sent, and consequently that, instead of sending large armies to foreign countries, we ought to shut ourselves up within ourselves, and think of that description of force which would be most useful in the defence of our own country. Such being his view of the true policy of the country, he felt it his duty to express his opinion upon the present occasion; and he could not consent to increase the burdens of the country, for the sake of putting a large disposable force in the hands of his majesty's present ministers. Lord Milton observed, that it was now Mr. Herbert rose merely to one point, but seventeen months since the house had and that he considered of so much imporbeen discussing a measure similar to that tance that he should feel he had not done proposed by the noble lord. He had the his duty if he omitted to mention the misfortune to differ from the noble lord at subject. He had listened with attention that time, and consistently, with the opi- to the speech of the noble lord, and was nion he then entertained, he was bound to sorry that a proposition which he had sugoppose the present measure. On the for-gested in a former session, made no part Iner occasion the noble lord expressly stated, that it was a measure only to be resorted to upon an extraordinary emergency, and not to be looked to as a general system for supplying the army. Now, it appeared that it was to be adopted as a regular systein for supplying the army; and the principle upon which these bills went, was nothing less than raising the regular army by a conscription on the people of this country. He was glad to hear what had fallen from the hon. bart. upon the subject, because, certainly, the hon. bart. could not be actuated by any party feeling in his opposition to the measure. Af of it. He was of opinion that greater reliance should be placed on the service of the militia for the defence of the country. The country treated them as well as the regular troops, and in some instances better, as it made a better allowance for their wives and children. The militia, therefore, owed a debt to the country of making their services as efficacious as possible. He wished that, instead of allowing the militia to enter into the regular army, they should be allowed to extend their services generally to every part of the United Kingdom. Since the Union the militia laws appeared to him anomalous; and his length. With respect to the question of the hon. member, he was sure that his right hon. friends could have no objection to the production of the fullest accounts that could be desired. But he apprehended, that it would not be necessary to delay, till they should be produced, the discussion of a measure for adding to the strength of the army. If the right hon. gent. really thought that the army had been wasted, shamefully wasted, as stated by him, surely he could not think this the conviction was, that the greatest advantage would result from making the force for home defence in both countries mutually applicable in any exigency. After enumerating some of the benefits that would flow from the adoption of his suggestion, and obviating some objections that might be made to it, the hon. gent. stated that the interchange of the militia of the two countries might be restricted, to avoid inconvenience, to cases of rebellion, or invasion, or upon addresses of both houses of parliament. Though aware of the lit-moment, in such times, to delay measures tle weight he possessed, yet if no other member should take the question up, he was determined in some stage of the bill to bring it under the consideration of the house. for repairing that waste. It was to protest against this imputation of waste that he had risen; and whenever the question should be brought before the house, he was convinced that his noble friend could been wise in his majesty's government to abstain from sending out assistance at any time to that country, were questions, which there would be after opportunities of discussing. But if ever the house or the public should decide in the negative, it would then be for the hon. gentlemen to shew that there had been mismanagement. of that assistance, or how it could have been better applied under their more able management. After the various plans the house had heard for the conduct of the campaign, he was sure that neither he nor his colleagues had any thing to fear from the comparison. He had an impatient anxiety to hear what plan the right hon. gent. could propose, but he suspected that if he could have made any improvement in the plans stated by his friends in a former debate, he would not have withheld the communication. As this was not a time for going into the merits of the measure in detail, he should not prolong the conversation. He, however, would add, that, whenever the merits of the campaign should come into discussion, he should be able to prove, that there had been neither waste from mismanagement, nor dishonour from misconduct during its continuance. Mr. Calcraft desired that he might be feel neither indisposition nor difficulty, to included in the reservation of his right hon. defend the application of the disposable friend, not to be construed as approving force of the country. Whether it should of any project of the noble lord, until the be desirable or not to send out other ashouse should be made acquainted with thesistance to Spain, or whether it would have deficiency to be supplied, and the amount to which the noble lord meant to increase the army. Then they could call upon the noble lord, from authoritative documents, to shew what he had done with the deficiency. He felt great difficulty in intrusting the right hon. gentlemen on the opposite side, with the management of a stronger disposable force, until they should show what had been done with the very efficient force voted last session. This, no doubt, the noble lord would do. In opening his measure to the house the noble lord had abstained from entering into details, and seemed to think it a matter of course to take 26,000 men from the defensive force of the country for the increase of the regular army. As this was a military subject, he wished to ask the secretary at war when the Army Estimates would be laid before the house, and hoped that they would be presented in such a form as that the house would not have to discuss the Army and Ordnance Estimates on the same night, as happened last session, when, after a long debate upon the Army Estimates, the house at two o'clock in the morning was called on to vote the Ordnance Estimates, exceeding four millions. He hoped, too, that the noble lord would have no objection to lay before the house an account of the effective strength of the army, before the second reading of the bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not think this the proper time for discussing the merits of the measure, and hoped, that the debate would not be continued to any Mr. Tierney stated in explanation, that he had never said that assistance ought not to have been sent to Spain in the early moments of its national ebullition; neither had he said that the deficiencies of the army ought not to be repaired. What he had said, was, that he would not con Mr. Elliot expressed deep regret that the regular army should be kept up by these hackneyed expedients, which had the effect of breaking down the militia, and produced the increase of the army by means of a direct, and he must be pernaitted to say, a fraudulent system of taxation. He lamented the inroads which had been made upon the wise system of a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Windham) then absent from indisposition, but who, he trusted, would attend in his place on the second reading of the bill. answer sent to the measure until he should be the rule of their conduct, determined to informed how the troops which had been meet the offer in a fair and candid manplaced at the disposal of the noble lordner, and by making those explanations in had been employed, and next, what the the first instance which must necessarily amount of the actual deficiencies in the result from any negociation, an army were. was returned, stating our relations with Portugal, the king of the Two Sicilies, Sweden, and the government of Spain, and our determination to support the cause of the Spanish nation. The reply of the ruler of France, stigmatizing the Spanish nation as Insurgents, might not, perhaps, cause much surprize; but it was impossible not to consider, without the deepest feelings of regret, the Answer of the emperor of Russia, stigmatizing as Insurgents a loyal people, who were fighting to support their legitimate monarchy, against a horrible and atrocious usurpation. By charactering the Spanish nation as Insurgents, who were supporting the legitimate monarchy of the country, it must be clear, at least negatively, that the brother of Bonaparte was to be held out as the lawful and rightful king. He could not have conceived it possible, had it not been for the intimation on a former evening, that any objection could have been made to the expression of the determination of his majesty's government to support the Spanish nation, as he believed there was scarce On the question being put for leave to bring in the bill, a division took place, for the motion 77, against it, 26. Majority 51.-The bill was then presented and read a first time. HOUSE OF LORDS. Thursday, January 26. [OVERTURES FROM FRANCE AND RUSSIA.] The Earl of Liverpool rose to move an Address to his majesty upon the Correspondence with France and Russia, relative to the Overtures from Erfurth, which had,ly a man in the country who did not, at by his majesty's command, been laid before parliament. Ilis lordship said, he should have thought it unnecessary to trouble the house with any observations on the subject, had it not been for an intimation of dissent. He was, however, at a loss to anticipate any objection to the line of conduct which had been upon this occasion adopted by his majesty's government, as it appeared to him to be most clearly dictated by every consideration of sound policy, and of what was due to the honour and character of the country. Every man in the country must have been convinced that the overtures on the part of France were not made in the spirit of peace, following, so immediately as they did, the aggression committed by that power against the Spanish nation, and the usurpation of the government of that nation, which had then been attempted, by nominating a person as king of Spain. He was ready to admit, however, that the Overture from Erfurth, setting aside the preliminary observation, and taking what was substantially the offer, was prima facie fair. His majesty's ministers, acting upon that principle which had been invariably the time it was known an Overture was received, think that such an answer ought to have been returned. It was not now the question as to the mode in which Spain ought to have been assisted--that had no relation to the discussion. Those only could object to the expression used who thought that no assistance ought to have been given to Spain, and that she ought to have been left to herself, and he believed there was no man in that house who held that opinion, nor scarcely any one in the country. But, where there were only shades of difference of opinion, with respect to the mode of assisting Spain, there could, surely, be no objection to our giving a distinct pledge of our determination to support generally the cause of that nation. He believed, upon this subject, there was a little difference of opinion in the country, as the people were rather inclined to accuse ministers of having not done enough in Spain, than of having done too much. With respect to the Answer returned to the propositions of France and Russia, he contended, that the honour and character of the country required that the determination to support the Spanish nation should be frankly and decidedly avowed; a | resulted from it, yet he could not applaud public pledge having been previously given the conduct of ministers in the Answer of that determination, and the assistance which they returned to it. They asked of rendered having been equally public. His the Ruler of France in their Answer, to give lordship concluded by moving an Address up as a preliminary to negotiation, the most to his majesty, thanking his majesty for important object for which he was contesthis most gracious communication, and ex-ing; because, calling upon him to acknowpressing their approbation of the wisdom and justice of the conduct of his majesty's government, evinced in the Answer returned to the Overtures from Erfurth, and in the determination expressed of supporting the Spanish government, acting in the name of their legitimate monarch, Ferdinand the VIIth. Lord Grenville said, he had hoped that the Address would have been so worded as to have enabled him to have done that which he should have wished to have done, to concur in voting it; but as it was now drawn up, he was compelled to give it his dissent, as he could not applaud the wisdom and justice of that conduct which he thought neither wise nor just. He was ready to admit, that at the time the Overture was made, there was no prospect of its leading to any practicable negotiation for peace. The Ruler of France had at that time arranged his plans for the achievement of an object the most important to him of any that he had yet in view, that of completely subjugating Spain. A most horrible and atrocious usurpation had been set up in that country, and unfortunately, the Ruler of France posessed the means of carrying his plan into effect; he went to Spain with a moral certainty of electing his object, and, no doubt, was sincere in his wish that a large | British army might be landed in Spain, he having in his hands the means by which the great object he had in view might be attained, and which he actually had attained in the course of two months-the subju- | gation of Spain. With this great object in view, and a moral certainty of attaining it, whilst we, on the other hand, bad taken up the cause of the Spanish people against this usurpation, and hoped to defeat the object of the Ruler of France, it was impossible to expect that any negotiation would take place. It could not be supposed that he would give up his object; it could not be expected that we should give up ours; it could not be imagined that either party would give up by a stroke of the pen what each expected to obtain by force of arms. But though convinced that the Overture was not made in the spirit of peace, and that no negociation could have ledge the persons exercising the power of government in Spain, in the name of Ferdinand VII. was requiring to give up at once his views upon the government of Spain-to give up the very object of his attack upon that country. This, therefore, he contcnded, was impolitic, as putting us in a worse situation than we might have been, by resorting to another mode of reply. Had the Answer expressed the readiness of this government to sacrifice British objects, for what was certainly a most important British object, the preservation of the legitimate government of Spain, it would have had the effect of placing the French government still more wrong, and of still shewing our determination to support Spain. He could not avoid, however, noticing, that it was stated, that a Treaty of Alliance had been concluded with Spain, although no such Treaty had been communicated to parliament. It was the constitutional practice to lay all Treaties concluded with foreign powers before parliament, that parliament might advise his majesty upon them. Of this Treaty, however, nothing was known to parliament; he knew nothing of it, and therefore could not speak on the subject, but he must deprecate the practice of making private Treaties, which were not communicated to parliament. His lordship recurred to what he had before alluded to, the Answer returned to the Overture, and observed, that as he could not approve of the terms of it, he must dissent from the Address, which applauded its wisdom and justice. The Lord Chancellor contended, that the question was not with respect to the Answer returned to the Overture, whether the Ruler of France should at once give up his views upon Spain, but whether the Spanish nation should be admitted as parties to the negotiation? The noble lord (Grenville) had said, that the person exercising the powers of government in France had accomplished his object in two months, and had completed the subjugation of Spain. He was of a very dif ferent opinion; he did not think that Spain was now subjugated; nor did he think that it would be: the contest in that country might still be carried to a |