organization of our army, and prevent the country being burdened with inefficient second battalions.-He should next advert to a former topic, namely, the compa Spain were true to themselves and to their own cause, it was not only the interest of this country, but the pledged duty of parliament, to support them. He did not mean to say, that we were now torative merit of the plan of a right hon. embark in wild military speculations that gent. (Mr. Windham), and the experiment had no chance of succeeding; but it was which he had thought it proper to make, still his opinion, that if the Spanish people of allowing men (if they pleased) to encontinued to display that energy which list for unlimited service. Now, if the they had shewn not many months ago, the gentlemen on the other side contended, struggle in that country was by no means that experience had decided in favour of the at an end. But supposing that struggle to theoretic principles of the right hon. gent. be now completely at an end, did not he thought he could account for the result. other views open to the mind of the hon. His experiment had, in fact, been only gent., and shew the necessity still of in- tried for the last six months. For the creasing our armies? Were we to suppose first eight months of the time the genthat no occasion could ever after occur in tlemen began their calculation, it was conwhich they might be wanted on foreign trary to law for men to enlist for unlimited service, or that the exertions of mankind service, and therefore all the recruits which were for ever to be tied down by the were got were for the limited service. For tyranny and usurpation of one individual? several months after it was lawful, it did If no field of action presented itself in not appear to be generally understood Europe, British interests might call them in the army. It was not till the last six for the defence of another part of the months that any had begun to enlist for world; while, at the same time, we must unlimited service. The first month only keep an invincible army on our own shores 12 men enlisted for unlimited service; but to protect them from danger and from as the thing became understood, the numinsult. He hoped that these consi- ber progressively increased. In the month derations would be considered as suf- of December, no less than 970 preferred the ficient arguments for the general prin- unlimited service. Of the last 1,400 recruits ciple of increasing the disposable force. which were raised, about 1,100 chose the He believed an hon. gent. on the other unlimited service; so that, instead of his side had fallen into a great mistake in experiment having failed, he thought it stating the diminution of the army in the was evident that men preferred generally present year, and he believed the mistake the unlimited service to the limited, and arose from the artillery being included in the profession of a soldier to the seven the return of the last year, who were not years service, which looked more like a included in the return of the present. In trade. He had been twitted with its being considering how the army was at present an Irish discovery, perhaps suited to the organized, there were 126 battalions of in- temper and spirit of the Irish nation, but fantry, whose numbers exceeded 600, and not adapted to this country or its more there were 56 that fell short in number. It sober neighbour, Scotland. The event, was well known that battalions, not amount- however, did not justify this charge, as he ing to 600, were considered inefficient, and was always much more disposed to rest not fit for service, and that the efficiency his arguments on experience and facts, of the army depended a great deal on the than upon abstract principles of philosobattalions being, full and complete. If phy. He was perfectly convinced that this measure obtained 27,000 men, it would there was no other rational ground for the complete all the battalions of our infan- system of the right hon. gent., than that try up to 900 men. There never was, it was likely to produce more men; for perhaps, a more efficient army for its num- it never could be said that it was likely ber, than that which was lately acting upon to improve the discipline of the army. the continent. In Portugal there were about He was so far from rejecting the system 29,000 men in 32 regiments; if there was altogether, that he by no means wished to now a deficiency in the fulness of our exclude men from entering for limited serbattalions, from the losses of that cam- vice, being convinced that there were paign, it was absolutely necessary that it many men who would prefer this mode should be repaired. This was a measure of enlistment; but as he was equally conwhich would not only increase the dis- vinced that there were many others who, posable force, but ameliorate the internal would prefer the enlisting for unlimited VOL. XII. Y service, he thought it but fair that they should be allowed their option. He wished to carry along with the more perishable materials of an army, as much as he could get of permanent. The fact, about the number of recruits was, that, whatever was the system, the country regularly produced about 1,200 men a month. How the number came to be so exact, he could not say. Recruiting serjeants might often put grave legislators to the blush, and there was a certain recruiting law which that house did not understand, and which perhaps got the men better than acts of parliament. Even in the halcyon days of high bounty, and no ballot, it was not found that the number of recruits exceeded the regular number by 100 men, nor under any other system did they fall short to that amount.-It had been mentioned, that large armies were dangerous to civil liberty. Gracious God! could any rational man now suppose, that the liberties of this country were in any danger from any regular army that it was judged proper to raise, balanced as that army must be by an immense force of Militia, Local, Militia, and other armed descriptions of force, and still more balanced by those constitutional feelings which animated no description of his majesty's subjects more strongly than it did our gallant armies, which had so often and so recently acquired immortal honour for themselves and their country. He trusted the house would not be discouraged by the present aspect of affairs, but that they would see the necessity of increasing rapidly our disposable force. Earl Temple said, that the noble lord had now shewn us the nature and spirit of the measure, for the transfer was not now made on an emergency, but in contemplation of an emergency. So that this was now to become a regular system from year to year. This, he said, was a very bad mode of increasing the regular army, and as a regular system, he had the strongest objection to it. His lordship also defended the plan of his rt. hon. friend (Mr. Windham), and stated, that when the noble lord laid his cold fingers upon it, it was producing at the rate of 24,000 a year, instead of the 13,000 produced by the noble lord; and out of the 27,000 that volunteered from the Militia, 20,000 were for limited service at a lower bounty. The Bill was then read a second time. HOUSE OF Lords. Friday, February 3. [SPAIN AND PORTUGAL.] Lord Erskine rose to make the motion of which he had given notice, for accurate returns of the number of officers and men belonging to the infantry, the cavalry, and the artillery, who had been embarked at different ports of this country and Ireland, for Spain and Portugal. He also wished to have an account delivered in of the expenditure, under the different heads, of money, arms, clothing, &c. which had been sent at dif. ferent times to the Spanish patriots. Also an account of the horses, waggon train, &c. He likewise wished to have a return made of the men, horses, artillery, &c. that had been relanded not in a disabled state, from the different ports of Spain. As the noble lord understood there would be no objection to the returns he called for, he should merely trouble the house with. moving for them. The noble lord then proceeded to move, "That an humble address be presented to his majesty, pray. ing that his majesty would be graciously pleased to give directions that these diffe rent returns be laid before the house." The Earl of Liverpool had no objection to the motions of the noble lord. He only wished him to bear in mind, that accurate returns, such as the noble lord has called for, could not be immediately forthcoming. It must be some time before the different regimental returns could be regularly made; and he only rose to state, that whatever delay might occur, should not be imputed to any unwillingness fully to meet the object of the noble lord's motion. The question was then put on each of the motions, which were agreed to. [PORTUGAL.] The Earl of Buckinghamshire rose, not for the purpose of bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice for this day, but to express a wish that he might be permitted to withdraw it for the present. He had received information from different quarters, which he feared was but too correct, that the French had re-entered and re-occupied Portugal. It was for his majesty's ministers to say whether such was the case or not, for they no doubt must have received advices of such an event. It was of the utmost importance in his mind that Portugal should be restored to its legitimate government, for should the enemy get permanent possession of the posts of Portugal, and of the fortresses of that country, it would be no easy matter to calculate the dangers that must arise from such possession, both to the interests of Spain, and to the security of these kingdoms. He should not now press the discussion of these points, but wait till the real state of Portugal should be accurately ascertained. The Earl of Liverpool rose, not to detain the house for any time on the topics alluded to, by the noble lord; that indeed would be irregular, as there was no motion before the house; but merely to state in answer to the noble lord's question, that his majesty's ministers had received no account of the French having re-entered and re-occupied Portugal. He was as deeply impressed as the noble earl could be, with the importance of Portugal, in the hands of an ally to this country, and with the dangers that might arise from its falling into the hands of an hostile power. He should only say, that on all occasions, he should be ready to furnish any information in his power on that interesting subject, as were his majesty's government, to enter into the fullest discussion and investigation of every point, connected with matters of such importance. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, February 3. month, 3,126,500l. For wear and tear of ships for ditto during the same period, at 11. 19s. per man 'per month, 3,295,500l. For victuals for ditto during the same period, at 21. 19s. per man per month, 4,985,500l. The hon. gent. then observed, that the house would learn with satisfaction, that the number of seamen now serving in the navy, covered entirely, if it did not exceed, the number which the committee had just voted. On the question that a sum of 591,600%. should be voted for Ordnance for the number of men voted, Sir C. Pole could not suffer this subject to pass, without expressing a hope, that his majesty's ministers entertained a dis position to regulate the course of proceeding at Doctors' Commons. It was his opinion, that the offices of king's advocate and king's proctor ought to be divided. He did not mean to object to the vote of any sum for the navy; but he must add, that he should like to see those who were to manage the expenditure of it, such as ten commissioners of the navy and of victualling, selected from amongst naval men. The practice, as well as the whole system of selecting officers of the army for such offices, he deemed altogether improper, as the appointment of persons not acquainted with naval affairs, to such situations, could not but be most mischievous. In the estimates then under consideration, he lamented that he did not see any provision made for the protection and support of the orphans of marine officers, and hoped that before the end of the session, some establishment, corresponding to the Compassionate Fund for the army, should be instituted for the navy. This he looked upon as a proper time for mentioning the subject; and if it should not be taken up by his majesty's ministers, in whose hands it most properly ought to be left, he should feel it to be his duty to submit the matter to the house in the course of the session. [NAVY ESTIMATES.] Mr. Ward moved that 130,000 seamen should be employed for the year 1809, including 31,400 royal marines, which were voted accordingly. The hon. gent. then stated, that the Estimates for this number of seamen and marines were precisely the same in amount with the estimates of the last year, though it had been thought desirable to make some alterations in the comparative amount of some of the branches. The allowance for wear and tear was last year taken at three pound per man, whilst the provision for victuals was estimated at 17. 19s. only per man per month. The latter estimate had been found to fall greatly short of the actual expenditure, whilst the wear and tear fell considerably below the actual estimate. The committee would therefore be aware of the propriety of endeavouring to reduce both to an amount that should be nearest the truth, and this he proposed to accomplish by taking a guinea from the allowance for wear and tear, and adding [CONDUCT OF THE DUKE OF YORK.] to the allowance for victuals. The follow- Mr. Wardle, previous to going into the ing sums were then moved by Mr. Ward, Committee of Inquiry into the Conduct of and voted by the committee: For wages his royal highness the Duke of York, wishfor 130,000 seamen and marines for thir-ed to correct the error to which he had alteen months, at 11. 17s. per man per luded yesterday, in his former evidence. The sum was then voted; after which, on the motion of Mr. Huskisson, two seve ral sums of 10,500,000l. and 1,500,000l. were voted to be raised by exchequer bills, to pay off similar sums of exchequer bills issued last session, and now outstanding and unprovided for. The Speaker informed the hon. member, seen Mrs. Clarke at all on Tuesday mornthat the time for offering any thing rele- ing. The admission therefore, that the vant to his former evidence, would be, hon. member had seen Mrs. Clarke on the when the house should have resolved itself morning of that day, was added to his eviinto a committee. The matter then imme-dence, but in order to avoid ambiguity, the diately before the house, was the notice words " as I have stated before" were exthe hon. gent. had yesterday given, of a punged. motion for certain Papers or Books, from the Office of the Commander in Chief. After a short conversation, which led to the omission of a part of Mr. Wardle's original motion, the following motion was agreed to: "That the proper officer from the Office of the Commander-in-Chief do attend the Committee of the whole House, appointed to inquire into the Conduct of his royal highness the Duke of York, with the Book containing the Applications for Purchase by Subaltern Officers, within the period in which Captain Maling had his three Commissions given to him." The house having then resolved itself into the Committee, Mr. Wharton in the Chair, Mr. Wardle begged to call the attention of the committee to the correction he had to make of his former evidence. He had on the former night stated that he had not seen Mrs. Clarke on Tuesday morning, though he had waited a considerable time in her drawing-room for the purpose of seeing her. On recollection, however, he found that it was on Monday he had waited a long time in the drawing-room, and that on the morning of Tuesday he had seen Mrs. C. for a few minutes, as well as in the evening, as he had before stated. The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that in the explanation of the hon. member, there was some ambiguity, in as much as the words" as I before stated" might be construed to the correction of the former evidence now first given as well as to the former statement of the honourable gentleman. Mr. Wardle declared that he meant the words" as I before stated" to apply solely to the interview which he had with Mrs. Clarke, for a few minutes in her drawingroom, on Tuesday evening, and which he had stated in his former examination. On the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the questions and answers relative to Mr. Wardle's interviews with Mrs. Clarke on Tuesday, were read from the notes of the short-hand writer, from which it appeared, that in his former examination Mr. Wardle had fallen into an error, which he had in this instance corrected, namely, by stating that he had not EXAMINATION OF G. L. WARDLE, Esq. (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) You were at Mrs. Clarke's, as you state, on the Tuesday morning? Yes. And saw Mrs. Clarke? Yes. Was Mrs. C. at home when you called? I believe she was up stairs. How long might you be at her house before you saw her? I do not think very long. A short time. How long did you stay there? I cannot speak very correctly; it is impossible for me to say exactly; perhaps half an hour or thereabouts. I believe I was in my carriage; but I am not certain. You came there in your carriage? I think so: but I am not very positive. I have been so constantly in the habits of going there that it is impossible for me to say: but I rather think I was in my carriage. Do you recollect how long you were there? Upon my word I do not, or else I would answer most fully; but to say positively that I can name a time, it really is not in my power. At what hour of the day did you go there? Upon my word I cannot exactly say; I think the first time I saw Mrs. C. on Tuesday was early in the morning. About what time? Upon my word I do not know the hour; but I remember going down in her carriage with her to the end of the King's Road. On the Tuesday morning? Yes, on the Tuesday morning. You called upon her in the morning? Yes. At what time in the morning did you call upon her first ? It was after breakfast; I should think about eleven or twelve o'clock. I do not speak positively. Was it at that time you called upon her in your carriage? No, it was not; I think I walked there. How long did you stay with her on that occasion when you called there, having walked there? To the best of my recollection, there were a parcel of workmen putting up looking glasses, and things of that kind, in the house: and I do not think I was there more than a short time. On that morning? Yes, as far as the bar at the bottom of the King's Road. Did you call upon her afterwards in your carriage on that day? I think I did in my carriage. I called upon her that day. At what time did you call upon her in your carriage? I really cannot exactly say; I should think it might have been three o'clock. I do not speak to an hour, but, as far as I can recollect, that was the time. It has since occurred to me where I had been; I had taken a long walk, and returned and went to her house in my carriage. Did you see her when you called upon her in your carriage? I did. She was at home then? I think she was up stairs, and came down soon. Then Mrs. C. saw you the second time? She saw me the second time. Do you recollect how long you staid with her the second time? I do not think long: I should think about half an hour: I do not know whether it was so much. I cannot be positive as to the time. Then I understand you to have said, that you saw her a third time in the evening? As I have before stated, I saw her at night in her drawing-room, with some company, for a very short time. You called upon her the morning before; the Monday? Í·did. Mrs. C. was not at home then? She was not at home; and I was under a mistake on the former night, in supposing that what occurred on the Tuesday, had happened on the Monday. Did you see her at all on the Monday? As I was coming away, having waited about two hours, she came in after driving about in town. Did you stay any time after she came in? No, I did not; I came away immediately. Then both on the Monday and on the Tuesday you had seen her in the course of the morning? As I have stated, I saw her for a very short time, just as she came in on the Monday. On the Tuesday, had you any conversation with her on the subject of these charges? I do not really recollect that I had; positively no pointed conversation at all. Did Mrs. C. first mention this subject of the charges against h. r. h. the duke of York to you, or did you first mention it to her? I fancy in the first instance I asked her questions respecting them. Do you recollect from whom you first derived your information on this subject? To say from whom is totally impossible. I could not, with propriety, state many of the names. Have you received the information from Mr. Finnerty? I never received any information from Mr. Finnerty in my life upon this subject. Within these few days he spoke to me, but not any information respecting these charges. I did not know Mr. Finnerty, and as to his giving me any information, he never did. Within these few days, Mr. Finnerty spoke to me respecting Dr. Thynne; I believe the very day before Dr. T. was examined. I think it necessary to add that when major Hogan's pamphlet was published, on seeing the matter held out there, of information being ready to be given to any member of parliament who asked for it, I wrote a letter addressed to major Hogan, and, in consequence of that letter, I had an interview with Mr. Finnerty, I put some questions to Mr. Finnerty, and I found, or at least, I had every reason to believe, that he had not any information at all upon the subject; and none did he give me. I never had any information whatever from Mr. Finnerty that led to any charge which I have made. I never, to my knowledge, saw Mr. Finnerty in my life till he came, in consequence of my letter to major Hogan, and then I had not any information from him, which led to the charges I have made. (By Mr. Yorke.) When was it that you saw Mr. Finnerty, in consequence of your letter to major Hogan; was it before or after the communication respecting Dr. T.? The communication respecting Dr. T. occurred in this lobby, or near it s I believe the night Dr. T. gave his evidence. It was some months ago when I applied by letter, perhaps a month after the publication of major Hogan's pamphlet. (By Mr. S. Bourne.) Was the day, on which you now recollect to have seen Mrs. C. three times, the day before your last examination? I have before stated, that I was led to believe, that what occurred on the Tuesday had happened on the Monday; as soon as I got home from this house, I made some enquiries that set me to rights on that subject, and I took the earliest opportunity yesterday of communicating, in this house, my mistake to the right hon. gent. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and to the right hon. gent. the Speaker. Are you certain that the day on which you now recollect to have seen Mrs. C. three times. was the day before your last examination? Yes, it was on Tuesday last. EXAMINATION OF WILLIAM ADAM, Esq. WILLIAM ADAM, esq. a Member of the House, attending in his place, was examined, as follows: (By the Attorney General.) Have you the letters to which you referred on a former evening? I wish to state that I have a letter dated Sunday morning, June 19th, without any year; it is indorsed in my handwriting, June 19, 1808. I have another letter dated Saturday morning, without any day of the month; I have not, I observe, put any indorsement of the day of the month or of the year upon that letter, but it will appear that that of the 19th of June 1808, was the first, and that dated Saturday was the second letter. |