THE Parliamentary Deba During the Second Session of the Fourth Parliame United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland the Kingdom of Great Britain the Twenty-first, ap to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-first day of 1808, in the Forty-eighth Year of the Reign Majesty King GEORGE the Third. [Se HOUSE OF LORDS. Monday, April 11, 1808. [ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.] Lord Grenville presented a Petition from the Roman Catholics of Ireland, praying that the disabilities respecting them might be removed; which was read at the table. His lordship stated, that there was an informality attached to it, in consequence of some of the names signed to it, not having been written by the persons bearing those names, although written by their authority. He believed, however, that petitions had been received where an informality of this kind existed, but where, as in this case, there were other names to the petition, signed by the parties themselves. He moved, that the Petition do lie on the table, and stated, that he should also move, that the lords be summoned for the 11th of May, with the view of then moving the consideration of this petition. The Earl of Moira regretted, that upon this occasion, he found himself compelled to differ in opinion with his noble friend. His sentiments with respect to the object of the petition had been declared and were well known; but when parliament had so recently decided, and when so many persons stood pledged upon this subject, he could not concur in the propriety of discussing it in the present session. He thought, that the urging at this moment of these claims, tended rather to retard VOL. XI. than to accelerate the object tioners. The Lord Chancellor observ spect to the informality, that informality existed, the rece petition was a matter of cou Petition was ordered to lie on Lord Grenville observed, wi what had fallen from his nobl he had not advised the pre petition; neither had he giv nion respecting it, his advice been asked. He had stated, occasion, his opinion, that it w expedient for the catholics at the present moment; the might be influenced by circu which neither he nor any themselves could judge. All ious to state was, that he had the presenting of this petition, he given any opinion agains it; nor did he mean now opinion on the subject. Per had known the circumstances the petition, he might have th pedient that it should be pres petition however having bee he should call the attention of the question whether it was the matter of the petition sho a subject of discussion. Ur that the 13th of May would b venient than the 11th, he mo lords be summoned on the 13th B HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, April 11. [ROYAL NAVAL ASYLUM.] Sir Charles Pole rose, in pursuance of his notice, to move a certain Resolution relative to the above institution, somewhat similar to that which he had lately proposed as to Greenwich Hospital. He knew it would be objected to what he was about to propose, that this charitable institution had been originally supported by private voluntary donations, but it appeared to him to be now under the immediate management of government, the more especially as parliament had been called on to vote considerable sums of money for its support. No doubt the private donations from other individuals were very important, but still there appeared no reason for separating its mode of management from that of Greenwich Hospital, as described in the Charter, Here the hon. baronet gave a statement of the most important public and private contributions to this Asylum. He observed, that a very large portion of that called "private contribution" was given from the Patriotic Fund, which was avowedly for the purpose of relieving the distresses of the relations of those who fell in the naval battles of their country. Surely, then, the offices of this charitable and naval institution could not be better bestowed than upon those who had survived these battles, but unfortunately were disabled. The sum subscribed by the Patriotic Fund amounted to 40,000l. and such being the intention of that fund, it surely never could be supposed, that other persons subscribing small sums could mean that their donations should be bestowed otherwise than upon individuals connected with the navy. They could never imagine they were subscribing towards the relief of persons, such as those already appointed to offices in that Asylum, who were as far removed from the naval service as the Great Mogul. The house were formerly told, that the office of Auditor of Greenwich Hospital must be filled by a lawyer, that Hospital possessing great sugar estates, and also great estates of other descriptions in the North; but, in the present case, what was there of law business to transact for the Naval Asylum? It was not, however, a lawyer that had been appointed to the Asylum, but a wealthy clergyman, who, for doing little or nothing, was to enjoy, in addition to other income, a salary of 300%, a-year as Auditor. Besides which, he was to possess a free house and garden; and a very large sum of money had been laid out in repairing a house for his residence, amounting, he believed, to about 1,700/; and added to all this, even furniture for the house. He really was convinced the duties of the office he alluded to might be performed by some poor worn out or disabled naval or marine officer at a salary less than 1004. a-year; but instead of this, no less than 7004, was thus squandered away upon a spiritual gentleman, who had no occasion for any assistance whatever. Another thing he should object to upon this establishment was, the appointment of a surgeon who had never been at sea during his life, and inducing him, by a great salary, to give up his private practice, instead of appointing a naval surgeon, who would be less expensive and more thankful for the favour bestowed upon him. There were various other appointments, which he thought objectionable, such as the clerk to the institution, the clerk of instructions, &c. but the chief ones were those he had mentioned, the auditor and the surgeon. He had no difficulty in say ing, that the persons who had appointed an Irish clergyman to the office of auditor of the Naval Asylum, had done wrong, if they knew that he was already possessed of four church livings in Ireland, and a glebe land so extensive, as to contain 540 Irish acres. The gentleman he alluded to was Dr. Thomas Brooke Clarke, to whom besides, there had been granted several very large sums, by resolutions of the house, as might be seen by their Journals. Here certain Resolutions were read by the clerk, at the desire of the hon. baronet. Amongst these was the sum of 5561. granted to Dr. Thomas Brooke Clarke, for his trouble in enforcing the residence of the clergy, whilst he himself intended to establish his residence at the Naval Asylum, instead of being at any of his livings in Ireland. This rev. doctor was also secretary to the library of the prince of Wales. Had all this been known when this reverend divine was recommended, he certainly thought he could not have been appointed to that lucrative situation. There were many of the old disabled officers in the navy, with large families, who would have been most thankful and grateful for the appointments of auditor, surgeon, or clerks to the institution. He should now sit down with the hope that the Resolution which he should propose, would meet with some consideration; for in doing this they were saving time a stranger in Ireland, thoug ing two such lucrative livings th thought it upon the whole so gr that he did think the house w not merely to agree to the motic hon. friend, but to follow them u address to his majesty, for the in dismissal of that gentleman from tion he must be in every respect s petent to fill. Mr. Biddulph said, that he h heard of a transaction, that co the public money, and adding to the comforts of those really entitled to relief, and who would ever be grateful for the favour bestowed. It was with that view that he should propose this Resolution, "That it appears to this house, that the appointment of competent and qualified persons from the naval and marine service to hold offices and employments in the several departments of the Royal Naval Asylum will be productive of much advantage to the empire, by materially encouraging the naval service, and diminishing the public ex-greater justice be termed a job, penditure."-This Resolution the hon. ba- appointment of Dr. Clarke; but ronet said, if acceded to, he should follow agree with his hon. friend on the up with another, for an Address to his ma- his expression of surprize, that jesty, praying that he would be graciously verend doctor should himself pro pleased to take the most summary means one of the non-residents he h of carrying that object into effect. so active in detecting; as it app him to be nothing more than an ill of the truth of the homely prove a thief to catch a thief." Mr. Rose said, he was happy to concur with any motion that was made for the benefit of those who served in the navy, or the near relations of those who fell in battle; but he must inform the house, that the present motion was unnecessary; as the commissioners were framing regulations for the conduct of the Naval Asylum. Two years ago an account of the state of the Naval Asylum was laid before the house, and the hon. admiral now only came forward with a pompous parade of his complaints, though he never said any thing on the subject while he was himself one of the lords of the admiralty. The institution was established originally by voluntary subscription; and when it was taken under the protection of his majesty, and the duke of Cumberland was appointed president, it was then agreed to retain Dr. Clarke, who first suggested the idea of the institution, and two commissioners, at the request of the original subscribers. He declared that he was not personally acquainted with any of the parties, nor did he recommend a single person to any office, and for these reasons he moved the pre-reconcile the zeal of the hon. ad vious question. Mr. Whitbread said, if the right hon. gent. had imputed to his hon. friend the charge of having brought forward the present motion with that simplicity, manliness, and good sense which distinguished all his efforts in that house, it would have been a charge more likely to be credited than that of parade and ostentation. As to the motion itself, he could see no one ground for rejecting it. He thought it very strange, that a person who had been so active in informing against non-residents, should himself have been all the Mr. Lockhart entered into a vin of the character and conduct, and ment of Dr. Clarke, who, he sai gentleman of high respectability complished manners; and such a was fit for the situation he filled, official intercourse he had to maint employment, however, was not could be easily filled, as the hon. stated. He had not only the ments of the charity to audit, bu counts of the officers in every dep He had to prepare the estimate nage the contracts, and to examin counts of all the builders and othe men employed. Besides, to his tending care of this institution in it was its present existence owing; continuance in the situation which from the beginning, was at the sp stipulated recommendation of th subscribers, who had contributed 4 the undertaking. He could not, economy, and his abhorrence sion, with his declaration this ni he should not have thought any the extravagance he arraigned, fruits been enjoyed by naval men Mr. Windham supported the mo said, an hon. member had give comical reason for the appoin doctor Clarke, viz. that he h will to the navy. Why, upon ground every man should becom ditor, for every one bore good wi as the good doctor; it was sa ever, that the doctor was cond the origin of the institution; aye, so it [Irish SUPPLIES. The Chancellor of seemed, for he took especial care to pro- the Exchequer moved, that the house vide for himself. The good doctor was should go into a committee of supply, and so fond of charity, that he was determined that the Irish miscellaneous estimates for to follow it in all its branches, and so various schools, charities, &c. should be let it begin at home. It put him in mind referred to the committee.-Ordered. of some pious founders of a temple, who, Mr. Foster proposed the usual annual in their great and ardent zeal, made a grants. He stated, that he would postpone niche for themselves. But the good doctor any of them on reason assigned. was a man of liberal education and there- Mr. M. Fitzgerald hoped he would postfore fit for the office! But if every man of pone the whole, as the papers were not yet liberal education were to put in his learn- printed. He objected particularly to the ing as a plea, pray how many auditors grant of 1,2001. for 250 copies of the stashould we have? He did not think the tutes for the use of Ireland, on account of general objection to the doctor's appoint- the negligent inanner in which they were ment was at all done away by this enu- distributed among the magistrates. meration of his qualifications. It was said, Mr. Foster agreed with the right hon. that it would be a breach of the contract member as to the irregularity of the disentered into by the founders of this insti- tribution, and promised to attend to that tution with the crown, on its receiving the subject; but this was merely for 250 coroyal charter. However, that could be no pies for the use of the public offices. He reason why the house should not interfere saw no reason for postponing the whole of to remedly an abuse. Gentlemen were the propositions.—The grant was then however ready to cry out, “what, do you agreed to.-On the proposition for grants atteinpt to throw impediments in the way to various clerks in public offices, of good actions ? Will you repress cha- Mr. Biddulph observed, that no staterity?' &c. This was not his desire; he ment had been made respecting their newished to prevent the perversion of chari- cessity. He thought that some explanaty; he wished to counteract the injustice tion ought to have been given as to the of putting a man not in the naval service insufficiency of the salaries of these ofnor at all connected with it, in the situation ficers, before these sums were voted by purposely formed for the protection of dis- parliament. tressed naval characters. Mr. Foster said that these grants had The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, been always made ever since he had been that at the commencement of the institu- in parliament. tion, it was made a point by the founders Colonel Barry also stated, that the sums that Dr. Clarke should be placed in his had been always allowed by the Irish parpresent office; and it would be a little liament, and that the officers looked to hard if he who was himself one of the them as part of their emoluments. first founders of this establishment should Mr. Biddulph would not oppose them be himself precluded from all its advan- now, though he was not quite satisfied tages. An hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread) with the answer, and would inquire furthought a great point was gained for him ther into the subject. by the motion for the residence of spiri- Mr. Foster observed, that the hon. gent. tual persons in Ireland, since he had might find in the journals what these offound out that Dr. Clarke possessed livings ficers had done for the grants. to a great amount. This very bill should Mr. Tierney said that the question was, set the hon. gent. at ease, for by it Dr. whether their regular salaries were not a Clarke would be reduced to the dilemma of compensation for their trouble? If they either relinquishing his valuable livings, or were not, he thought that an addition to of relinquishing the situation of auditor of their salaries would be a better mode of the Naval Asylum. rewarding them than these annual votes.Sir Charles Pole said a few words in re- The grants were then agreed to. ply, in which he stated the case of a purser Mr. Parnell wished that the grant of who had served a long time in the navy, 23,1031. to the incorporated society of and who certainly was full as competent Dublin for the encouragement of protestant to fill the situation of auditor as a doctor chartered schools, should be postponed. of divinity:--The house then divided, For The reason he gave was, that a document the Resolution, 46; Against it, 71. Ma- which related to this grant had only come jority, 25. into his hands as he was entering the a house. This was a catechism which was position must have, in the ordinary course put into the hands of the children, having of things, led them to unite in peace, conå tendency to encourage religious ani- cord, and the common cause and general mosities. welfare. He was happy, however, to find Mr. Foster hoped the hon. gent. did not these calumnies and gossippings seemed of wish to prevent this charitable institution late rather to be confined to that house. from receiving the necessary supplies for He should not have any objection to the the present year, because he objected to present grant, but he nevertheless thought the principles on which it was founded. it his duty to state his intention of bringThese might afterward undergo alterations, ing the whole establishment very shortly but the present grants were absolutely ne- under the review of parliament. cessary. The Chancellor of the Erchequer thought Mr. Tierney thought the matter might the opposition of the hon. member, even be compromised by granting a small sup- supposing he had the document to which ply for the present, and afterwards, when he wished to refer the house now in his a larger supply came to be voted in ano- hand, perfectly irregular, since there could ther committee, the subject might be tho- be no motion made in the committee for roughly investigated. the reformation of the general establishDr. Duigenan said, he did not feel at all ment. surprised to perceive the hon. gentlemen Mr. M. Fitzgerald maintained, that the opposite anxious to oppose the prosperity antiquity of these establishments and of the Protestant establishment. This es- grants were alone but sorry reasons for tablishment was solely for deserted and their continuance. Many others, which helpless children, who were, in conse- had commenced nearly about the same quence of their forlorn condition, received time with these, loudly called for aboliinto these schools, and educated in the tion. It was not the character of the Protestant religion. During the vice- lower order of Irish to neglect their chilroyalty of the duke of Bedford, these dren, nor were the Catholics of Ireland schools had been subjected to the exami- the most prone to commit this unnatural nation of a committee, by no means over- crime; they had at least the feelings and stocked with Protestant zeal. Their re- humanity of men, if they had not their port was highly favourable to the institu- political advantages. He maintained, that tion. The grant had been uniformly the children educated in these schools made, for 50 or 70 years back, without were not proper objects of charity. Their any objection. The catechism in use, he education and temporary support were believed, was the usual Protestant cate- too often made the means of purchasing chism, set forth in the Rubric, and was them perhaps. by the inadvertence of their calculated to correct the political errors parents, from the religion of their forefaof the Roman Catholics, which were found thers. Hence whatever pains might be ed on their monstrous religious tenets. taken, there was not above one-fifth of Mr. Parnell said, the catechism was those who received their education in these very different from that in common use. schools, who were added to the number of The first question in this catechism, he the established church. It was, then, a stated, was, “What religion are you of?' great delusion held out to parliament to To which the child was taught to reply, suppose the supplies yearly granted for I am, thank God! a Protestant. Such this purpose were in any degree proporopinions were merely calculated to revive tioned to the advantages the country reall those latent sparks of animosity, which, ceived. In most Catholic and remote but for the culpable industry of some, parts of Ireland, those schools had been might have long since been extinguished. much on the decline, while they had proThe whole system of education in those portionally increased within the vicinity schools, he maintained, was destructive to of Dublin. the peace and tranquillity of that people, Mr. Elliot rose to justify the character who had been too long and too lately re- of the board appointed under the governminded of those mischievous and unfound- ment of the duke of Bedford. By enued assertions, those envenomed calumnies, merating some of the persons who comand antiquated stories, which had hitherto posed that board, he thought he could been employed most effectually as the justify them from any intentions hostile to means of exciting those against each the established religion. These were the other, whose natural benevolence of dis- primate of Ireland, the provost of Trinity |