PARL. DEBATES, APRIL 26, 1808.— Petition of the East India Company. (72 riod of 1802 mentioned under the 4th | remain at the end of the year goods to the head, and during a period of ten years, amount of 8,307,0921. as a security for any from 1797 to 1807, the advances made loan that may be made :—That the various out of the petitioners' funds at home, for Accounts and Estimates necessary to supsupplies in goods and bullion sent to India port an application by the petitioners to and China for payment of bills of exchange the house for relief in the premises could drawn upon the petitioners from thence, not be made out in time for the petitioners and for sums paid in England on account to prepare and present a petition thereon of political and military charges apper- before the time limited for receiving pritaining to the Indian territory, have very vate petitions was elapsed ; and therefore largely exceeded all the returns received praying, that in consideration of the cirin the corresponding period from the said cumstances of their case, leave may be countries, which by an account carefully granted to them now to present to the made out appear to be indebted to the house their petition, praying that the house home concern in the said period to an will be pleased to take the matters aforeamount exceeding five millions sterling - said into their consideration, and to grant That the petitioners do not presume to re

to the Petitioners such relief in the prequest the interposition of the house to aid mises as their case may require, and to the them in their present emergency, without house shall seem meet.”—The Petition beat the same time shewing their unquestioning read by the clerk, able ability to discharge all their present Mr. Grant said, that as the affairs of the debts in England, and to repay whatever East India Company were already under. the house may in its wisdom think fit to the consideration of a committee of that assist them with; for, independent of the house, which was then employed in invesIndian Debt which the petitioners submit tigating them, he would move, That the Peis justly chargeable on the Indian terri-tition be referred to the said committee. tory, the petitioners beg leave to state Mr. M. A. Taylor said, although he that, on the 1st of March last, the sum should be inclined to bow to any recomtotal of debts, carrying interest and not mendation of that conimittee, yet he could carrying interest, owing by the petitioners not help thinking the most fair way would in England, then amounted to the sum of be to refer this Petition to a special com9,122,621l. (not including the amount of mittee, as it appeared to be a question of their capital stock, but including the debts very great importance, in order to ascerhereinbefore mentioned to be due to his tain whether the East India Company majesty for Customs and Excise), and the were preferring a claim or a demand. He sum owing by the public to the petitioners, thought that as such a full investigation was

a taking the same as it stands in the annual necessary, the hon. gent. who presented accounts at 2,460,0001. and other good this petition ought to have given the house debts due to them in England, together a regular notice of his intention to refer it with the value of the petitioners' goods to the consideration and investigation of now unsold in their warehouses, and of the a committee. He did not wish to enter petitioner's houses, warehouses, and other into any discussion of East India affairs property in England, amount to the sum at present, but he thought that when the of 14,149,6231.; and moreover, the peti- house were to be induced to agree that tioners certainly expect further goods from such a sum should be given away, the case India and China in the course of the pre- ought not to be submitted to them in such sent year to the amount of 5,271,0001. a thin house. In the most common cases which, added to the last-mentioned sum, such notices had uniformly been given, and will make their actual property in England was it not absurd to endeavour, under amount to 19,420,6231. from which the other circumstances, to make the house debts aforesaid being deducted, there will sanction and encourage a demand to that remain a balance of 10,298,0021.; but tak- extent upon the public? He hoped, thereing only the amount of the goods now un. fore, that a regular notice would yet be sold in their warehouses, being 7,815,3051. given, for he could not so permit one shiland the amount of goods to be expected ling of his constituents to go towards the in the course of the year, being 5,271,000l. East India company. He had been formerly both will make an aggregate of property one of the East India committee, and then amounting to 13,086,3051. and if from this thought, as he still did think, that that combe deducted the estimated amount of sales pany was a monopoly that ought not long in the course of the year, there will still to exist. This was a question which would

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yet come to be discussed; but he could | rican trade, in order that it might be transnot permit any question of this kind to go ferred to British subjects. With an anon without reminding the house of the fal-nual loss in trade, the company was lacious hopes that had been held out, that obliged to borrow money annually to pay the East India Company would be able the dividends to the holders of stock. to assist the funds of this country upon a Therefore, until the monopoly was entirely future occasion. In what way, he would put an end to, there ought to be a limitaask the house, were they to do it? Had tion of stock, and a stop put to the paythey any means of doing so when such ment of dividends, unless the same could claims were submitted ? The Committee be paid out of the profits. now sitting would, no doubt, make out Sir John Newport considered the sum their Report in the most judicious manner; now demanded as nothing less than a gift; but unless he should see vouchers and ac- and as Ireland must be obliged to concounts laid before the public, in the same tribute a part of it, he would now lay his manner as private merchants would do claim on behalf of Ireland, to a revision were they submitting similar claims, and of the act by which Ireland gave up her not the mere statement that they had re- right to any part of the trade to India, in sources here and resources in India, he for order that she might receive remuneraone could not be convinced of their actualtion for her losses in consequence of this capability. Having had access to their monopoly. This was the opinion of all the papers, he could not help thinking this commercial bodies in Ireland, who felt that monopoly was a drawback to the general if they contributed any thing towards retrade of the country, by affording the lieving the East India company,they cught Americans to draw off one half of our to have a share in the trade. trade, and tended to prevent it in future Mr. Grant declared that he had no wish from becoming more extensive. Hethought to take the house by surprise, or to pass it was, therefore, the indispensable duty any measure of importance in a thin of ministers to inquire, whether, under house; but he conceived that many of the such circumstances, they should propose observations just made, had a tendency to to parliament to renew the company's prejudice the company in the eyes of the charter, which would expire in 1811? He public, and therefore he would make a was one of those who would never consent short reply to them. With respect to the to the renewal of that charter for another trade of the Americans to India, the public three years after that year, provided he laboured under a great mistake. The had then a seat in that house.

situation of Europe was such as necessarily Mr. Creevey thought the house under to check the extent of our Indian trade; obligations to his hon. friend, for the man- and the neutral state of the Americans ner in which he had brought this subject enabled them to derive advantages from forward. Being a member of the commit- that trade, which it was not in the power tee for inquiring into the affairs of the India of the company to prevent. Whenever company, be had an opportunity of seeing this case should come to be fully discussed documents which enabled him to form an before the house, sufficient evidence would opinion, that the Company never would be be shewn to remove every prejudice that able to repay the loan they were now call- might exist on the subject. None other ing on parliament to grant. There was a could supply the continent of Europe with deficit in the present year's account of no Indian produce, but the Americans; and less than three millions; and what reason it was not the fault of the company that was there to suppose that the Company | they engrossed so great a share of the would not come next year and call for ano- trade. With respect to the observations ther loan? If the money they called for which fell from an hon. gent. (Mr. Creenow was granted, it must be considered as vey,) he did not know how far it was regua gift, and not as a loan. It, therefore, was lar for a member of the committee to give necessary immediately to consider whe- an opinion from documents which, in that ther the monopoly ought to be renewed. character, he had access to, and thus preThe Company was now carrying on a judice the judgment of the house, before trade without any surplus revenue, by bor- any report was made. The company

had rowing money at a high interest. Their the guarantee of parliament to expect trade was daily decreasing, and the Ame that their present request would be grantricans had become their rivals in it. Some ed. He denied that it was to be consimeans should be devised to stop this Ame- dered in the light of a gift; and he hoped

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the house would be of opinion, that the the inquiry was known. He did not petition ought to be referred to the com- take notice of this merely to observe that mittee up stairs, as the best qualified to it was unnecessary, but he thought it right consider the nature of it.

to advert to it because the right hon. gent. Mr. Ponsonby said, that it was clear, that had given it as his opinion, that it ought whatever the company might be able to to be assumed that this was not a loan but do at a future period, they were now un- a gift, and that this gift was asked in order able to pay their dividend, and called to enable the company to make a dividend upon

that house to enable them by a suin of 10 per cent. to the holders of their stock of money, to be raised upon the country, from the public money. This, however, to supply their deficiency, and enable was exciting a prejudice against the Comthem to pay the dividend of their particu- pany, without any real foundation for it. lar stock. He thought that before the It was expressly denied that the sum was house agreed to dispose of 2,400,000l. of requested as a gift; but, at all events, facts the public money, the public should know were stated that required examination. the real state of the company, and be no The Company offered to make out that longer imposed upon by the delusions that they were to a certain extent creditors of had prevailed so long and to such extent. the public; and nobody seemed to deny It might be right, or it might be wrong, to that some hundreds of thousands were due. comply with the prayer of the petition, to them from the country. If we chose to but in either case the country had a right refuse any assistance to the Company in to expect that there would be no under their distress, we ought at least to take hand dealings, and that every thing would care not to contribute to that distress, by be carried on, fairly and openly. Whether withholding from them what of right bethe total suppression of the company longed to them. Whether something more would be a national injury was a very dif- ought not to be done for the Company in ferent question, and one he should think their present situation, was a point upon it rash for him to go into any opinion which it would be much better to l'eserve. upon; but it was a question of no little any opinion till the report of the committee moment to ascertain, whether even the was laid before the house. It was, certainly, lending or giving this sum would maintain a very grave question, even in a national the East India Company as a solvent com- point of view, whether, for want of some pany for the national benefit.

aid from the country, under a temporary

a The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that pressure, the affairs of the Company should there was at present no call for a deter- be suilered to fall into utter confusion. If mination whether it was fit to comply they made out a case that called for this with the prayer of the petition or not. aid, and it should be judged adviseable to That question must depend upon the Re- grant it, could we in justice attach condiport of the Committee. With regard to tions to the grant, which would render it the complaint of an hon. gent. that no no benefit, but the contrary?

?? notice had been given, he conceived that Mr. M. A. Taylor, in explanation, said, it was not customary to require a notice of that he had not asserted that any notice an intention to present a petition. If in- was requisite before presenting the petideed there had been any doubt or diffi- tion. What he did say was, that in a quesculty with respect to the motion, founded tion of this magnitude it would have been upon it, that might be a good reason for a proper to have given notice of the motion delay in the proceeding. But the whole for reference. that was now proposed was, to put the Mr. Ponsonby, in explanation, stated, petition in a state of enquiry, and for that that he had given no opinion as to the purpose nothing could be so proper as to propriety or impropriety of complying refer it to the committee actually em- with the prayer of the petition. He had ployed in the investigation of the subject merely said, that this must be considered to which it related; and there was no oc- as a gift, and not a loan, and his reason casion therefore for any notice. The right was, that if the credit of the Company was hon. gent. who spoke last had begged that sound, they might borrow money upon it he might not be considered as pledging without coming to parliament: another himself to any assent to the prayer of the reason was, that after all the promises as petition by not objecting to this reference. to the assistance they would be enabled to This caution was unnecessary, because give the public, they had never advanced nobody could be pledged till the result of more than 500,000l. for that purpose. He

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should be glad to find by the Report of well as the merchant. He concluded, by the Committee that the affairs of the Com- expressing his wish, that the affairs of the pany were in a flourishing condition ; but Company might undergo a complete inhe confessed he saw no good ground for vestigation. anticipating so fortunate a result.

Sir John Anstruther observed, that the Mr. Tierney stated that the Company East India company had not come, as had a right, by act of parliament, to in some gentlemen imagined, to ask the house crease their capital to a sum equivalent to for any indulgence but such as had been four millions, and last year parliament granted to other mercantile companies, authorised them to issue bonds to one half and on former occasions to themselves. that amount. He considered this applica- They had, some years ago, applied for and tion as similar to that of last year. The obtained similar relief, which they had inCompany now had a right to demand a variably returned to the public; and he debt of 1,200,000l. from the public, and could not see why they should now be reafter that was satisfied, they were well en- fused assistance, when they shewed the titled to claim a loan of an equal amount. same grounds for it, and had kept their He thought it was dealing hardly with the faith so well on former occasions. He Company to make statements merely on denied in strong terms that there had been presenting a petition, before any docu- any attempt on the part of the Company ments were laid before the house, and he to delude the public, or to keep from them therefore considered the observations of a fair state of their affairs, and deprecated his hon. friends as premature. No one the ingrafting on this subject the question knew what calamities might fall on the of the policy of throwing open the East country from this great body being in- India trade. He trusted that when this volved in distress. A strong disposition question came to be discussed hereafter, it existed out of doors to get rid of the would not be canvassed in a mere comcharter of the Company; and though mercial point of view, but that the whole many might think this a proper occasion political bearings of the case would be to introduce that favourite subject, he taken into consideration, both as relating thought it would be time enough to do so to the welfare of that country, and, in his hereafter, and when that day came he opinion, to the very existence of this. He knew the opinion he should give. No would not, however ready he was to enter one, however, could say, that this act was upon this investigation, trouble the house a forfeiture of the company's charter; and further on this occasion, than to express after they had abstained so long, from his doubts as to the practicability of the pressing their just claims on the public, it export trade to India being carried on seemed rather a hard return to raise a by individual exertion, whatever facility clamour against them as persons suing opening the intercourse of private traders parliament for gifts. With respect to the might afford to the importation of East speculations and promises of two noble India goods. lords (Melville and Castlereagh), that the Mr. Howorth insisted, that there had of Company would realize such magnificent late been a total suppression of the East schemes, he had only to observe, that it India Company's affairs, and the last was the noble lords, and not the Company, budget had only brought them up to that had made these promises; and there- 1803-4, since which time not a document fore the company could not fairly be on the subject had been produced. Neicharged with a breach of faith. He could ther were there any documents in support not consider this money as a gift, and if it of the petition, and he considered it only could be shewn, that the state of the Com- fair and reasonable, that before parliament pany required such assistance, he would granted any aid, a complete state of the join with those who thought it better to Company's returns, sales, profits, and asabolish the Company altogether. This sets, should be laid before it. was a great commercial body, labouring Mr. R. Dundas replied, that it was not under distress not brought upon them by usual to produce documents in support of vice or mismanagement, but by the state the allegations contained in a petition, but of the world; and they merely required that the only reason none were offered in that relief which government would give this case was, that they could not be preto any commercial men under similar dif- pared in time for the petition to be preficulties, and which had been done some sented within the limits prescribed by the years ago with advantage to the public as house. As to the deficiency of the East

India accounts, it was owing to no wish for concealment at home, but arose from their not having been received from India. In reply to the allusion that had been made to a noble lord in the other house, he said, however sanguine his views might have been on some occasions, he had always stated the grounds on which they were founded, and solicited investigation.

Mr. Tierney, in explanation, said, that he meant no more than that the noble lords had been much too sanguine in their calculations. The motion was then agreed to,

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Wednesday, April 27.

cerning the existence of the evil. He did not suppose the returns could be made this session; but it could not be difficult to make them, because the assistant barristers must have kept a register by them of each trial, of which it was easy for them to make a return: and all he wanted was, the number of trials altogether, which he conceived a matter of great importance to have made known. The motion was then agreed to.

[FIFTH MILITARY REPORT.] Mr. Wardell gave notice, that on Monday he would move several amendments in the bill for increasing the Assessed taxes. While he was on his legs, he would take that opportunity of asking his majesty's ministers, whether it was intended to adopt any new regulations in pursuance of that part of the Report of the commissioners of Military Inquiry, which related to the abuses in the medical department of the army?

alluded to was made, he must not conclude, that there was any neglect of duty on the part of the ministers, if they had not finally determined what measures ought to be adopted on the subject.

[DEAD BODIES INTERMENT BILL.] Mr. Tremaine rose pursuant to the notice he gave yesterday. He said that in various cases of shipwreck, dead bodies were cast on the shores of this kingdom, which some- The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, times could not receive the common rights that if the honourable gentleman recolof burial. This was a disgusting circum-lected the period at which the report he stance, and disgraceful to the character of the country. The cause was, that parish officers were afraid to order bodies to be buried, on account of the expences they might bring upon the parishes. His object in the present measure, was to propose that parish officers should be compelled to bury all bodies so cast on shore; and that the expence of the same should be defrayed by the counties. Also, that rewards should be given to persons discovering dead bodies, and giving information of the same to the parish officers. He then moved for leave to bring in a bill to that effect, which was granted.

[IRISH TYTHES.] Mr. Parnell moved, that there be laid before the house, an account of the number of Civil Bills, respecting Tythes, which have been tried before assistant barristers in Ireland, during the year ending the 1st of Jan. 1808.

Dr. Duigenan said these causes were so numerous and so scattered through different parts of Ireland, that he did not see how it was possible to procure the returns which the hon. gent. desired.

Mr. Parnell replied, that the objection stated by the learned doctor, was the principal reason why he wished to have such returns laid before the house. It was because these processes were so numerous, and because litigations respecting ty thes in Ireland had increased to so great a pitch, that he thought it necessary for parliament to have the fullest information con

Mr. Wardel replied, that he was not satisfied with the answer he had received, and wished to know if it was intended to bring forward any proposition on this subject at an early period.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he could not give a precise answer to the question, but the hon. gent. was at liberty to fix on any time he chose, for bringing the Report under the consideration of the house.

[CULTIVATION OF FLAX IN IRELAND.] Sir John Newport said, he understood by public rumour, stated in some of the newspapers, that in consequence of the deficiency of Flax-seed imported this year into Ireland, owing to the embargo in the American ports, a considerable quantity of the flax-seed remaining in G. Britain, and which was intended to be expressed into oil, had been sent over to Ireland, and allowed to pass. As this was a subject of great importance to the kingdom, inasmuch as it involved in it the staple manufacture of Ireland, he wished to know if there was any truth in the rumour.

Mr. Foster said, he only knew of this rumour, from what he saw in the newspapers. It was, however, natural to suppose, that persons in Ireland would wish to get