to the existence of the fact presumed to exist, on which this bill stood, namely, the respective values of Church establish

ments.

Mr. Hawkins Browne supported the bill, and was happy to find that the economy and guardianship of the Church had fallen into such good hands. He lamented the spirit of opposition which had so uniformly displayed itself on the other side of the house, to a measure calculated to secure the dearest interests of the Church and the comfort of all descriptions of the clergy.

Lord Milton dreaded the terrific influence the present bill must necessarily give the superiors of the Church over their inferiors, and the operation of this influence, through the medium of the minor clergy, upon the public mind at large.

The Bishop of London moved that the Mr. Tierney thought the bill could be bill be printed. In a day or two, he should brought into operation only by the neg-propose a day for the second reading of ligence of the rector; a supposition on which he did not think it dignified to act. Mr. Windham followed on the same side: he said the bill was not content to let the Church remain militant here on earth,' but it wished to render it a Church'litigant' also.

Mr. Stephens supported the bill as tending to cause the parochial duties to be performed by persons whose indigence would not disgrace their profession.

the bill. He should, at present, offer no observations upon what had just fallen from a noble earl, as abundant opportunities would occur of arguing the merits of the bill in its future stages.

[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.] On the motion that this bill do pass,

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The Earl of Selkirk renewed his objection to the measure. He wished it to be confined to the age between 18 and 25; and thus it would have the effect of trainDr. Laurence objected to the bill, that it ing the whole body of the youth of Great tended to destroy the principle upon Britain to the use of arms. He was anxiwhich not only ecclesiastical but property ous the bill should be freed from the inconin general was founded. He was of opi-venience and difficulties under which other nion, there was no necessity for legislative measures of this nature were known by interference on this subject, and that it experience to be liable. Above all, he would be better to leave the appointment wished to abolish the ballot; with that of curates salaries to the diocesan. He view he should move an amendment, to considered it to be a great defect in the omit in the preamble of the bill the words bill, that it did not apply to lay impro" and balloted." priators.

armies; but they were not such a force as he thought should and might now be organized in this country, and on which alone it must rely for its defence and security.

Lord Hawkesbury observed, that the principle of the old posse comitatus was excellent in theory; but like most things which were very specious in theory, it was most inconvenient and insufficient in practice. What the state of the country now called for was, a force permanent in time of peace and of war; and which, by providing such permanent means of defence to co-operate with the already existing force, would provide the means of permanent resistance to a permanent danger. He therefore did not see the use of the amendment.

that Mr. Palmer's appointment was during pleasure, and only to continue as long as his conduct deserved approbation, and his exertions were beneficial to the public. There was nothing, therefore, in the terms of the contract on which to rest the claims which Mr. Palmer now advanced. Besides, the conduct of Mr. Palmer, in several transactions, was of a complexion to merit the severest reprobation, and the forfeiture of any conditions that might have been entered into in his favour. On this head, he would refer their lordships to the evidence on the table, more particularly to that of Mr. Long, who was, from his situation at the time, best enabled to be informed of every particular connected with Mr. Palmer's contract. That evidence was far from speaking very strongly in Mr. Palmer's favour. On these grounds it was, he had thought proper to bring forward his present motion, and not from any private motive of ill-will towards Mr. Palmer. His lordship concluded with

Lord Sidmouth distinguished between the plan of his noble friend (lord Selkirk) and that recommended by the noble earl. His noble friend was for so modelling the measure as to make it operate in training the whole body of the youth of the country to the use of arms. In that plan he wil-moving that the bill be rejected. lingly acquiesced; but if the amendment of his noble friend should be rejected, he should give his support to the present bill, as approximating next to that which he thought would best accomplish the object which government had in view, and which the nature of the times made indispensably necessary.

After a few observations from lord Radnor, lord Selkirk's amendment was negatived without a division.

The Earl of Radnor proposed an amendment to secure persons balloted for in the training act, from serving in the local militia. This amendment, after a few words from lord Hawkesbury and lord Stanhope, was also negatived; after which the bill was passed.

[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.] The Order of the day being moved for the second reading of Mr. Palmer's per-centage bill,

Lord Eliot rose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of their lordships to the bill now before them. He had bestowed much attention on the nature of Mr. Palmer's Claims, and on the evidence which had been adduced for and against them. After due consideration of these points, it was his opinion that the bill ought to be rejected, and he should conclude with a motion to that effect. The noble lord then went into an examination of Mr. Palmer's contract with Mr. Pitt, which he contended had in view future as well as past services. He also asserted,

The Earl of Moira.-My lords; Nothing excited by any speech to which I may on former occasions have listened in this house, comes near to the degree of surprize with which I have heard the motion now offered for your adoption. It is not that my mind was unprepared for some extraordinary procedure. In a manner wholly unprecedented in parliamentary transactions, your attention was called to this subject before you could, consistently with the established principle of your own order, or without infringing your accustomed respect towards the other house, avow any knowledge that the matter was in agitation. Nay, a body of testimony received by a Committee of the Commons was requested from that house at a time when it had not come to any conclusion on the question; and a Committee of your lordships was named to open proceedings on that evidence. This seemed not merely strange; but, could one have permitted oneself to give way to the conception, might have been thought to indicate a fixed resolution of crushing the Claim of Mr. Palmer, howsoever it should be circumstanced. One resisted the suspicion, because it must have appeared to every body that this case, though not in form a judicial question, was in essence strictly so; and the nice regard of your lordships to equity forbad the indulgence of a doubt. What follows? Your Committee give to you the evidence just as

to do, urges

they received it from the house of com- matter further at present in the house of mons (in which state, as you well know, commons. Then the chancellor of the exit is not evidence for this house), with the chequer starts up; and, without having sole addition of a few questions put to Mr. given the least hint of what he was about Long; and, upon this foundation, the

forward that bill which he had noble lord who took the lead in your opposed in every previous stage with procommittee recommends to you a conclu- fessed hostility ; performs the function sion from that evidence, diametrically which only appertained to a supporter of opposite to that which was deduced from the bill; passes it, and sends it up to us as it by the commons; and without a hear- sanctioned by the deliberate judgment of ing given to Mr. Palmer, you were moved the house of commons. Wherefore? Beto declare against the justice of his preten- cause, to those who had determined to sion to a stipulated participation in great trample on the Claim, it was more desirable advantages acknowledged to have been that sentence should be passed upon it, received and to be now enjoyed by the than that it should remain to strengthen public through his plan. You know that, itself by its intrinsic merit in public previous to the adoption of Mr. Palmer's opinion ; so it was to be expedited to us, pian, the revenue of the Post-office amount- to receive that doom which it was thought ed to but about 150,0001. and you equally would be secured for it in this place. Flatknow that, in consequence of his system, tering indeed to this house imagine that it was swelled to the enormous sum of such a question, a question of private pro1,200,000l. It is idle to attempt saying, perty and personal justice, would be prethat a part of this arises from an increased judged here! No other construction, unrate of postage. The noble lords, who fortunately, can be given to these steps. have filled the office of Post-master Ge- How ought we to look upon those who neral, will not contradict me when I assert, have co-operated in such a plan? That is that the additional tax on letters (which a point which I leave to your feelings rewas a part of Mr. Palmer's proposal to the spectively; for it is too painful for me to minister) could not have been borne had press.--So much, my lords, for the preliit not been counterbalanced by some minaries. Now see upon what sort of argusignal benefit to the correspondence of the ment the motion itself is recommended. country. I appeal to the official know- The noble lord does not pretend to deny ledge of those noble lords, whether the the original specific contract entered into tardiness and insecurity of the post, on its by Mr. Pitt, nor does he dispute the fact, original footing, had not induced numbers that the advantage reaped by the public of mercantile people to send their letters from Mr. Palmer's plan has gone far bea in parcels by the stage coaches, in diminu- yond what had been contemplated; but tion of the Post-office revenue, and whe- | he gives you a choice of two solutions to ther it was not a growing evil ? An addi- do away the inference from his admission. tional tax on letters would have been only In the first place, he tells you that though an additional motive for this practice, had it was Mr. Pitt's intention to grant those not the safety and the dispatch provided conditions, they were found irreconcileable by Mr. Palmer's plan for the transmission of to the Post-office Act; therefore, Mr. Palletters made it worth the while of the mer- mer accepted a lower per-centage and a chants (and indeed of all other descriptions) place, both to be held at the pleasure of to submit to the augmented impost. -Do 1 the minister. Mr. Palmer's invariable assay too much when I assert, that this whole sertion to the contrary, and his loud retransaction bears a most unfavourable co- clamation against Mr. Pitt's subsequent lour of a concert which ought not to have conversion of the terms into an annuity taken place for such a purpose? The pro- of 3,000l. is intitled to at least as much cedure elsewhere will explain my meaning. weight, as the loose supposition now ofThe honourable mover (Major Palmer), fered to you. Must it not, however, strike who brought forward the Claim in another every one as the grossest of absurdities in place, justly alarmed by the steps which Mr. Palmer, that he should gratuitously he saw taken here, naturally inferring that waive a benefit assured to him for life, in there was a determination to crush this order, without any additional or compen. Bill, and wisely measuring his own inabi-satory boon, to rest upon the will of wholity to struggle against such a combination, soever might be minister? This, too, when dropped his notice for the third reading of he knew the irritation of all the old serthe bill, and determined not to urge the vants of the Post-office against him, for Vol. XI.

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his pretension of managing a branch of succeed, were piqued in vanity to detheir duty better than they had devised feat his hopes as well as those of the means of doing. The point, however, is public ; and in this circumstance lies the clear from that very evidence on which the explanation of the necessity for Mr. Palnoble lord thinks he can be borne out mer’s being in the Post-office at all. But to another conclusion. That Mr. Palmer see what is urged against this gentleman. might be entitled to interfere at the Post- Letters written in the carelessness of conotfice, it was necessary he should have a fidence to his deputy are produced to prove place under the Post-master General ; a the insolence of Mr. Palmer towards the place, we will allow, on the tenure of good Post-master General, and Mr. Palmer's behaviour ; and a calculated portion equal connivance at frauds. With respect to the to the salary of the place was to be de- first, it is never to be forgotten, that Mr. ducted from the per-centage. Now, who Palmer conceived himself, though ostensidoes not see that in reason and justice this bly under the Post-master General, to be deduction could only be understood for as substantially independent of any one but long as he should hold the place? Remove Mr. Pitt; but, as this seems not to have him, and you return to the original con- been explained by the Treasury to the tract. That contract, it is now said, was Post-master General, there were constant not admitted by Mr. Pitt. The contract, jealousies of intrusion on the one hand, and my lords, cannot be denied. It stands in of contumacy on the other. I am not palclear written proof before you. Nothing liating the tone of Mr. Palmer's letters, but assumptions, assumptions of the most because I have no doubt but that he wouli extravagant nature, appear against it; and be the first now to condemn their stile, that Mr. Pitt should have thought himself though they were addressed to one on at liberty to impose arbitrarily upon Mr. whom he had such reliance that the senti. Palmer a substitute for the conditions (hav- ments seemed not to go beyond his own ing secured, on the other hand, all the in- breast; but I positively deny that the shacrease to the revenue and all the conve- dow of an impeachment against Mr. nience to the public) is a matter which Palmer's integrity can be drawn from I lament, but upon which I shall not ex- those letters or from the transactions to patiate. I will only say, it seems as if, which they refer. The noble lord, withwhen the stipulated gains of Mr. Palmer out sufficient consideration of the nature came to an amount far beyond what had of the evidence, directly charges Mr. been expected, an apprehension arose Palmer with having been privy to the that an improvident bargain might appear fabrication of false vouchers. How does to have been made for the public; to get the case really stand ? In the outset of the rid of which imputation, it was expedient business, before any thing had got into its to annul the bargain by the hand of regular course, Mr. Bonnor, the deputy, power. Provident or improvident, it was advances a sum of money to one of the a bargain; and as to the magnitude of persons employed in travelling to establish the profit to Mr. Palmer, it could only be the line for the mail coaches. That man proportional to the augmented convenience loses his accounts of the expenditure. Mr. of the public. But the noble lord then re- Bonnor cannot recover the sum from the sorts to his other ground; and he tells you, office without detailing the articles of that whatsoever the conditions might have charge. He applies, in a letter now bebeen, they were forfeited by Mr. Palmer's fore you (see p. 199), to Mr. Palmer, statmisconduct in the office; of which mising the hardship of not being repaid moconduct the noble lord has been pleased ney bonâ fide laid out in the public service. to indicate particulars. I have already Mr. Palmer directs Mr. Hasker, another resisted the position that any alteration in gentleman of the Post-office, to sit down the engagement could be affected by Mr. with Mr. Bonnor and calculate what might Palmer's behaviour in office, other than equitably be supposed the expences of the that if he misconducted himself, he was no man measured by those journies which longer to have the superintendence of there was proof he had performed, and by that concern on the good or on the bad the disbursements which the establishments management of wbich bis gains were ma- effected by him must have required. The materially to depend.

It was scourge

account so made ont Mr. Palmer passed. enough over Mr. Palmer, that the busi- Was this done in secret? Why, then, ness might be left to persons, who, hav. I should Mr. Hasker, a clerk in the office, ing asserted that the scheme never could have been called in? Was there turpitude

Who, upon a

in the transaction? With whom then did it , if he wanted to expose and distress the originate the deputy. Who was to be the Post Master General whom he is repreloser if the account should not be made up? sented as treating with such hostility: the deputy. Who furnished the whole state- When I speak of the Post Master General ment of facts ? the deputy. Yet an accu- (lord Walsingham), it is with the sentiment sation made a long time after to the Post- which every man who knows him must master General by that deputy, in conse- entertain of him ; with the truest respect quence of his having quarrelled with his for his private virtues, and with the obligaprincipal, of an account's having been so tion which I must feel in common with incorrectly made up, is received from that every other of your lordships, for the inperson who did reap advantage from the defatigable exertions of that noble lord in business, as decisive testimony against the the committees of this house ; exertions so probity oi Mr. Palmer, who could not draw important for the security of the rights and a possible benefit from the transaction properties of individuals as to entitle the But, says the noble lord, the consciousness noble lord to the gratitude of the country of impropriety is evident from Mr. Pald for the manner in which he discharges his mer's own expression in one of the letters, functions. That noble lord I am confithat this was the most aukward account he dent, naturally incensed as he has been at had laid before the board.

the language held by Mr. Palmer, never moment's reflection, (which I am sorry for a moment thought of putting on this the noble lord did not give to it), but must matter a construction different from what perceive, that this phrase was a just repre. I have given to it, or would have wished a hension, though gently conveyed, to the hesitation about the payment. The truth inattention of his deputy. And did the was, that, although the contractor overPost-master General, prejudiced avowedly reached the Post Master-General as to against Mr. Palmer, ever put such a con- the quantum of compensation, there had struction upon that letter? I say he could been a regular bargain; and the good not have done it. If he had, he must have faith of government was pledged to the regarded the whole transaction as fraudu- punctual performance of its part. Is it too lent. Did he so ? There is direct proof much to ask, that in another bargain eviagainst the fact: for lord Walsingham in the dently as clear and precise, the same prinevidence acquits Mr. Palmer of having any ciple should be observed ? I speak of Mr. private interest of his own in making up

Palmer's contract. If it, no more than this account Had the transaction been the other, was not reduced to a strict fraudulent, all the parties concerned in it written agreement, does it become the must have been subjected to the deserved British government to quibble like Shyreprobation of the Post Master General. lock, and say “ it cannot find the condiYet Mr. Hasker, one of those who made tion in the Bond?” Does any body question up the account, was so far from being cen- the original terms ? Does any body, unless sured, that he has since been promoted to upon assumptions which violate common a situation of much greater trust and emo- sense, urge that there was a subsequent lument. He has been, I doubt not, be- alteration of these conditions ? Mr. Long, comingly so promoted; for, I repeat, there indeed, is called before the committee to was not any thing in the business to excite give his opinion of what was Mr. Pitt's even a transient suspicion of malversa conception of the engagement. What a tion. Then it is said, that Mr. Palmer strange sort of evidence! But, independesires bis deputy to pass an account dent of the inadmissibility of any thing so which he at the same time describes as loose as an opinion upon what was another a shameful imposition. Good heaven! man's opinion, I would object to Mr. would not one suppose that the noble lord Long on this occasion, as a person who reckoned upon our never having read the could not be impartial. He stands prodocuments from which he reasons; or, fessedly interested to vindicate the chawhat is more probable, that he never racter of Mr. Pitt from having made an read them himself. What is it that Mr. improvident bargain. I do not admit it to Palmer consents shall be paid? A debt have been an improvident bargain ; but intailed by the Post Master General had it been ever so much so, I say the through an unfitting interference with Mr. testimony of Mr. Long cannot counteract Palmer's contracts; a debt which could the intrinsic evidence of the case. Mr. not attach on Mr. Palmer; a debt which | Long is a man of the highest honour, and Mr. Palmer had but to refuse sanctioning, would not say that which he did not most