House, or whether it is all the world befide, that have been deceived? We are ever talking to one another within thefe walls about our dignity, but do the people catch this ftrain from us? Have we been able to make their blood run high; does the circulation of their blood run one iota faster on the fubject of our own dignity than it did before? Nay, far from it, that our conftituents, inftead of catching from us this raging fever, have thought proper to apply their phlebotomy to our veins, in the hope of relieving us a little, during the height of our frenzy. Mr. Dundas then retorted on Mr. Fox's argument, that it was dangerous and impolitic in every ftate, to truft Minifters completely in the arms of the Crown'; and he faid he would alfo beg leave to make an hypothefis.What the right honourable gentleman had faid about lofing votes in the other House, by having reduced the army, he understood, was meant only a fuppofed cafe; he conceived therefore he had a perfect right to fuppofe a cafe on the other fide of the queftion. Inftead of letting the Crown have the whole power of naming and of protecting Ministers, as the right honourable gentleman fays, fuppofe for a moment the Houfe of Commons thould affume both those privileges. I have then perfect right to fuppofe, that inftead of paying court to the Crown, on whom alone they would depend in the other cafe, that in this cafe depending on the Houfe of Commons alone for nomination and fupport, a combination of men might pay as wicked court to individual members of Parliament, as ever Minion paid to a defpotic King. I infift upon it, that I have just as good right as the right honourable gentleman, to make this hypothefis, on my fide of the argument; that if ever the House of Commons should affume the right of nomination and controul, fome abandoned faction or other, by ufing every artifice in this Houfe, by ufing every fpecies of corruption out of it, (you will obferve, Sir, I fpeak merely on an hypothefis) may by the promises of peerages to fome, of future places and emoluments to others, all which I infift it is perfectly unconstitutional to promife while the Crown has the nomination of Minifters, though it would not be unconftitutional if factions might nominate themselves. I fay, Sir, I have perfect right to suppose the cafe (for I beg gentlemen to be ware of thinking it any thing more than my fuppofition) but I do fay, Sir, I can conceive a poffibility that a combined faction in the Houfe of Commons may contrive so to intrench themselves in their party by the various means of artifice, of fine promifes and of corruption, that if they could gain alfo the right of nominating themselves Minifters, the country

Mr. Powys.

Mr.Wilber

force.

might be as completely enflaved, the Conftitution as completely broken down, and its whole fabric as utterly annihilated, as in the other cafe it would be broken down and annihilated if the King was fuffered both to name his Ministers, and afterwards to protect them, in their arbitrary and wicked measures.What I fay therefore, is, that the true Conftitution lies between these two extremes, that the King has a right to name, and the House of Commons has afterwards, upon trial, full right to accuse the Minifters. If, indeed, there is any thing fo flagrant in the perfons or characters of Minifters, as to make the mind revolt at their nomination, and to merit inftant cenfure, no doubt the Houfe of Commons ought inftantly to interfere; but to fay that this Houfe has in all cafes a negative on the appointment without giving one reason why, is to fay that this Houfe has the appointment; for they gain all the end and all the effect of an actual nomination, which is a principle that I deny, for the reasons which I have juft mentioned. The right honourable gentleman, Mr. Dundas faid, had been prudent enough to infert in his manifefto, that it was not the punishment, but merely the removal of Minifters that he wished: the world would at least give him credit for that part of his declaration; to get their places the world would readily believe was all he wanted, and that he could give no reason why they ought to be turned out, and why he fhould come in, was what the world would as readily believe. Mr. Dundas made fome observations on Mr. Pitt's honourable conduct in the negociations with the Duke of Portland, and maintained, the anfwer from the King, fo far from being capable of the charge of duplicity, was fair, manly, decided, and explicit; for how could his right honourable friend, as a man of honour, forbear from telling the King what he fo perfectly well knew himself, that to turn him out, would not prove the means of forming an union between the two contending parties. He hinted, that the meeting at the St. Alban's Tavern had caufed much procraftination, and he thought that it had ferved no good purpofe.

Mr. Powys fpoke fome time, and lamented that Mr. Pitt had not been willing to accept of the terms on which he had wifhed him to meet.

Mr. Wilberforce replied to Mr. Powys, and was astonished how he could wish his right honourable friend to trust himself in an Adminiftration upon unequal terms, on the principle that unless Mr. Fox's party was the ftronger there could be po unity of principle.

Mr.

Mr. Powys and Mr. Wilberforce both rofe again to explain.

Mr. Rolle faid, that he was at the meeting at the St. Alban's, Mr. Rolle. where he had stood up alone to remonftrate on the impropriety of their conduct; for a letter having come from the Duke of Portland to them, they fent only an extract to Mr. Pitt, because the latter part of the letter was of a nature that did not tend towards a conciliation. He infifted the whole ought to have been communicated, and that this proved the Duke of Portland, and not Mr. Pitt, was the enemy to union.

Sir W. Lemon corroborated what Mr. Rolle faid: but he had Sir W. Leobjected to fending the whole letter, because he was extremely mon. earneft for union.

Mr. Burke made a speech of about two hours, chiefly on the Mr. Burke. fubject of India, faid he had been fhamefully traduced for his conduct, but that he gloried in it.

The Honourable Charles Marsham and Mr. Powys said, Mr. Rolle was the only perfon at the St. Alban's, that objected to fuppreffing the latter part of the Duke of Portland's letter.

Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt both declared, they had not feen the exceptionable part of the letter, and Mr. Marsham promised, as he had it not then in his pocket, that he would on fome other day read it in the House.

Sir Richard Hill made a humourous fpeech, and read fome Sir Richverses that he had made, being the anfwer from the King that ard Hill. he fuppofed Mr. Fox would have dictated.

Lord North ridiculed Sir Richard Hill's verses, and faid it Lord North. was exactly that kind of idle nonfenfe about Carlo Khan, &c. that had mifled the weak part of the country fo ftrangely. He accused Adminiftration of refifting the motion from the fear that the true grounds of the fubfifting difpute might become known.

Mr. Samuel Smith spoke for fome time, and the House divided about twelve o'clock.-Ayes, 191; Noes, 190.-Majority, one.

Ordered that the faid representation be prefented to His Majefty by fuch members as are privy counsellors.

March 9.

The House refolved itfelf into a Committee on the Mutiny bill, General Sir George Howard in the chair. As foon as the preamble had been read,

General

General

Smith.

The Chan

General Smith faid that His Majefty's Minifters were in poffeffion of papers, which contained the most alarming accounts of tranfactions in India. The commander in chief of His Majesty's forces there, had been arrefted; and the second in command had been fuperfeded by a power not competent to fuch an act: from which circumftances it had happened, that all military government in India was overturned; for according to act of Parliament, all power and jurifdiction for holding courts martial, muft iffue from the chief officer in India, in the King's fervice; and that officer being fuperfeded, no court martial could be held, and confequently there would be an end of the King's army in that part of the world.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid he could not well have cellor of the conceived that the circumftance of a Mutiny bill being before Exchequer the Committee, could have given rife to a fpeech on the late

tranfactions in India. The tranfactions alluded to were certainly of a very important nature; His Majefty's Minifters had received very ample information on that head; and would undoubtedly take fuch steps in consequence, as to them should feem moft proper; if the affiftance of Parliament fhould be neceffary, they would certainly apply for it. But he could not think that this was the proper time for difcuffing that business; the queftion before the committee was, whether there fhould be a Mutiny bill, or not?

General Smith replied, that what he had faid had appeared to the right honourable gentleman, irrelevant to the question, only because he had not heard all he had faid; for he could not conceive there was a more proper occafion for fpeaking of the government of the army in India, than when a bill for regulating the army was before the Committee: he begged leave therefore to repeat, that General Stewart, the commander in chief of His Majefty's forces in India, had been arrefted; and General Sir John Burgoyne, the fecond in command, had been fuperfeded; and therefore as the law had vefted in the King's principal military commander the power of holding and ordering courts martial, and that officer was fuperfeded, there would be an end to all military subordination and difcipline in India.

Mr. Jenkinfon reminded the honourable General that the bill then before the Committee, in no degree whatever affected the army in India, for it extended to the King's forces in every part of the dominions of Great Britain, except India. He admitted that what had lately happened there, was of the most serious nature, and deferved the most serious confideration. The Com nander in Chief had been arrefted, and the

I

next

next to that officer in command had been fuperfeded. Upon no part of the tranfaction did he mean to give an opinion; he was in hopes, however, that no mischief had happened, or was likely to happen, in confequence of the step that had been taken.

General Smith faid, that if no mifchief had happened, Gen.Smith. General Sir John Burgoyne alone was to be thanked; for if he had been a man of lefs moderation than he displayed on this occafion, the King's troops might probably have been drawn out, and oppofed to thofe of the Company.

Mr. Jenkinson acknowledged that great praise was due to Mr. JenGeneral Burgoyne for his moderation, which had prevented kinfon. the King's and the Company's troops from being drawn out against each other.

Sir George Howard, as Chairman of the Committee, went Sir George through the different claufes of the bill, till he got to the Howard. blank, which was left for the words to exprefs the term of the duration of the act.

The Secretary at War moved that the blank be filled up The Secrewith the words "from the 25th day of March 1784, to the tary at War. 25th day of March 1785.”

Ridley.

Sir Matthew White Ridley immediately addreffed the Chair- Sir M. W. man ; he faid the majority of the Houfe would this day prove to the public how false were the reports, that they intended to ftop the supplies, throw out the Mutiny bill, and plunge the nation into anarchy and confufion; for his part, he was convinced that the public would, fooner or later, be convinced, that their reprefentatives had been struggling for the Conftitution. He had embarked in that conteft with the pureft motives; and had concurred with the majority of the House, as long as he had any hopes that the Houfe could fight with effect the battles of the Conftitution. But with regret he was now forced to fay, that the Houfe of Commons was defeated; and defeated by those who ought to be its natural fupporters and defenders-the people. Minifters and their adherents had fo mifreprefented the nature of the conteft, and fo widely diffeminated the mifrepresentations, that the people, for whom alone the Commons had entered the lifts, had not only abandoned them, but turned against them; with fuch auxiliaries, Minifters had triumphed; they had taken from the Commons their heavy artillery (their conftituents) and turned it upon themselves. No wonder that with fuch auxiliaries prerogative fhould triumph over the privileges of the Commons. But whether it was wonderful or not, it was a melancholy truth that the House of Commons