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House, or whether it is all the world beside, that have been deceived ? We are ever talking to one another within these walls about our dignity, but do the people catch this strain from us? Have we been able to make their blood run high ; does the circulation of their blood run one iota fafter on the subject of our own dignity than it did before? Nay, far from it, that our constituents, instead of catching from us this raging fever, have thought proper to apply their phlebotomy to our veins, in the hope of relieving us a little, during the height of our frenzy. Mr. Dundas then retorted on Mr. Fox's argument, that it was dangerous and impolitic in every ftate, to trust Ministers completely in the arms of the Crown; and he said he would also beg leave to make an hypothesis. What the right honourable gentleman had said about losing votes in the other House, by having reduced the army, he understood, was meant only a supposed case;- he conceived therefore he had a perfect right to suppose a cafe on the other side of the question. Instead of letting the Crown have the whole power of naming and of protecting Ministers, as the right honourable gentleman says, suppose for a moment the House of Commons thould assume both those privileges. I have then perfect right to suppose, that instead of paying court to the Crown, on whom alone they would depend in the other case, that in this case depending on the House of Commons alone for nomination and support, a combination of men might pay as wicked court to individual members of Parliament, as ever Minion paid to a despotic King. I insist upon it, that I have just as good right as the right honourable gentleman, to make this hypothesis, on my side of the argument; that if ever the House of Commons should assume the right of nomie nation and controul, fome abandoned faction or other, by using every artifice in this House, by using every species of corruption out of it, (you will observe, Sir, I speak merely on an hypothesis) may by the promises of peerages to some, of future places and emoluments to others, all which I insist it is perfectly unconstitutional to proinise while the Crown has the nomination of Ministers, though it would not be unconftitu. tional if factions might nominate themselves. I fay, Sir, I have perfect right to Tuppose the case (for I beg gentlemen to be ware of thinking it any thing more than my supposition) but I do say, Sir, I can conceive a poffibility that a combined faction in the House of Commons may contrive fo to intrench themselves in their party by the various means of artifice, of fine promises and of corruption, that if they could gain also the right of nominating themselves Ministers, the country Nn2
might might be as completely enslaved, the Constitution as completely broken down, and its whole fabric as utterly annihi. lated, as in the other case it would be broken down and anni, hilated if the King was suffered both to name his Ministers, and afterwards to protect them, in their arbitrary and wicked measures. What I say therefore, is, that the true Constitution lies between these two extreines, that the King has a right to name, and the House of Commons has afterwards, upon trial, full right to accuse the Ministers. If, indeed, there is any thing so flagrant in the persons or characters of Ministers, as to make the mind revolt at their nomination, and to merit instant cenfure, no doubt the House of Commons ought in ftantly to interfere ; but to say that this House has in all cases a negative on the appointment without giving one reason why, is to say that this House has the appointment; for they gain all the end and all the effect of an actual nomination, which is a principle that I deny, for the reasons which I have just mentioned. The right honourable gentleman, Mr. Dundas faid, had been prudent enough to insert in his manifefto, that it was not the punishment, 'but merely the removal of Ministers that he wished : the world would at least give him credit for that part of his declaration; to get their places the world would readily believe was all he wanted, and that he could give no reason why they ought to be turned out, and why he should come in, was what the world would as readily believe. Mr. Dundas made fome observations on Mr. Pitt's honourable conduct in the negociations with the Duke of Portland, and maintained, the answer from the King, fo far from being capable of the charge of duplicity, was fair, manly, decided, and explicit ; for how could his right honourable friend, as a man of honour, forbear from telling the King what he so perfectly well knew himself, that to turn him out, would not prove the means of forming an union between the two contending parties. He hinted, that the meeting at the St. Alban's Tavern had caused much procrastination, and he
thought that it had served no good purpose.. Mr. Powys. Mr. Powys spoke some time, and lamented that Mr. Pitt
had not been willing to accept of the terms on which he had
wished him to meet. Mr.Wilber. Mr. Wiiber force replied to Mr. Powys, and was astonished force.
how he could wish his right honourable friend to trust himself in an Administration upon unequal terms, on the principle that unless Mr. Fox's party was the stronger there could be po unity of principle,
Mr. Powys and Mr. Wilberforce both rose again to ex plain.
Mr. Rolle said, that he was at the meeting at the St. Alban's, Mr, Rolle. where he had stood up alone to remonftrate on the impropriety of their conduct'; for a letter having come from the Duke of Portland to them, they sent only an extract to Mr. Pitt, because the latter part of the letter was of a nature that did not tend towards a conciliation. He insisted the whole ought to have been cominunicated, and that this proved the Duke of Portland, and not Mr. Pitt, was the enemy to union.
Sir W. Lemon corroborated what Mr. Rolle said : but he had Sir W. Leobjected to sending the whole letter, because he was extremely mon. earnest for union. .
Mr. Burke made a speech of about two hours, chiefly on the Mr. Burke. fubject of India, said he had been shamefully traduced for his conduct, but that he gloried in it.
The Honourable Charles Marsham and Mr. Powys said, Mr. Rolle was the only person at the St. Alban's, that objected to suppressing the latter part of the Duke of Portland's letter.
Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt both declared, they had not seen the exceptionable part of the letter, and Mr. Marsham promised, as he had it not then in his pocket, that he would on some other day read it in the House.
Sir Richard Hill made a humourous speech, and read some Sir Rich. verfes that he had made, being the answer from the King that ard Hill. he supposed Mr. Fox would have dictated. * Lord North ridiculed Sir Richard Hill's verses, and said it Lord North. was exactly that kind of idle nonsense about Carlo Khan, &c. that had milled the weak part of the country so strangely. He accused Administration of resisting the motion from the fear that the true grounds of the subsisting dispute might become known.
Mr. Samuel Smith spoke for some time, and the House die vided about twelve o'clock.--Ayes, 191; Noes, 190.--Majority, one. - Ordered that the said representation be presented to His Majesty by such members as are privy counsellors.
Joule sir Genread
March 9. .. The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Mutiny bill, General Sir George Howard in the chair. As soon as the preamble had been read,
General Smith said that His Majesty's Ministers were in Smith. poffefsion of papers, which contained the most alarming ac
counts of transactions in India. The commander in chief of His Majesty's forces there, had been arrested; and the second in command had been superseded by a power not competent to fuch an act: from which circumstances it had happened, that áll military governinent in India was overturned; for according to act of Parliament, all power and jurisdiction for holding courts martial, must issue from the chief officer in India, in the King's service; and that officer being superfeded, no court martial could be held, and consequently there would be an end
of the King's army in that part of the world. The Chana The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid he could not well have cellor of the conceived that the circumstance of a Mutiny bill being before
the Committee, could have given rise to a speech on the late transactions in India. The transactions alluded to were certainly of a very important nature; His Majesty's Ministers had received very ample information on that head; and would undoubtedly take such steps in consequence, as to them should seem most proper; if the affiftance of Parliament should be necessary, they would certainly apply for it. But he could not think that this was the proper time for discussing that business; the question before the committee was, whether there should
be a Mutiny bill, or not? General
General Smith replied, that what he had said had appeared Smith, to the right honourable gentleman, irrelevant to the question,
only because he had not heard all he had said; for he could not conceive there was a more proper occasion for speaking of the government of the army in India, than when a bill for re. gulating the army was before the Committee : he begged leave therefore to repeat, that General Stewart, the commander in chief of His Majesty's forces in India, had been arrested ; and General Sir John Burgoyne, the second in command, had been superseded; and therefore as the law had vested in the King's principal military commander the power of holding and ordering courts martial, and that officer was superseded, there would be an end to all military subordina
tion and discipline in India. Mr. Jen: Mr. Fenkinson reminded the honourable General that the kinson.
bill then before the Committee, in no degree whatever affecta ed the army in India, for it extended to the King's forces in every part of the dominions of Great Britain, except India. He admitted that what had lately happened there, was of the most serious nature, and deserved the most serious consideraţion. The Com nander in Chief had been arrested, and the
next to that officer in command had been superseded. Upon
General Smith faid, that if no mischief had happened, Gen.Smith, General Sir John Burgoyne alone was to be thanked; for if he had been a man of less moderation than he displayed on : this occasion, the King's troops might probably have been drawn out, and opposed to those of the Company
Mr. Jenkinson acknowledged that great praise was due to Mr. JenGeneral Burgoyne for his moderation, which had prevented kinson, the King's and the Company's troops from being drawn out against each other.
Sir George Howard, as Chairman of the Committee, went Sir George through the different clauses of the bill, till he got to the Howard. blank, which was left for the words to express the term of the duration of the act.
The Secretary at War moved that the blank be filled up The Secrewith the words “ from the 25th day of March 1784, to the tary at War. 25th day of March 1785.".
Sir Matthew White Ridley immediately addressed the Chair- Sir M. W. man; he said the majority of the House would this day prove Ridley. to the public how false were the reports, that they intended to stop the supplies, throw out the Mutiny bill, and plunge . the nation into anarchy and confusion ; for his part, he was convinced that the public would, sooner or later, be convinced, that their representatives had been struggling for the Constitution. He had embarked in that contest with the purest motives; and had concurred with the majority of the House, as long as he had any hopes that the House could fight with effect the battles of the Constitution. But with regret he was now forced to say, that the House of Commons was defeated ; and defeated by those who ought to be its natural supporters and defenders the people. Ministers and their adherents had so misrepresented the nature of the contest, and so widely differninated the misrepresentations, that the people, for whom alone the Commons had entered the lists, had not only abandoned them, but turned againft them; with such auxiliaries, Ministers had triumphed; they had taken from the Commons their heavy artillery (their conftituents) and turned it upon themselves. No wonder thạt with such auxiliaries prerogative should triumph over the privileges of the Commons. But whether it was wonderful or not, it was a melancholy truth that the House of
had taken fromnd turned prerogative it whethe