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Mr. Fox.

Lord Beauchamp.

Lord Beauchamp,

dreffes, that might lead to confequences of which they were not aware, he said, "Are your resolutions to be a dead letter? Or are they to be followed up with other measures ?” And furely this could not be called difrefpectful language to the House. The right honourable gentleman had said, that there was a defign to leffen the confequence of the House of Commons but thofe, faid Mr. Dundas, who know what I was, and what I am, will never think that I, of all men, could ever entertain a defign to leffen the dignity of this Houfe for whatever little confequence and diftinction I have, if I have any, I derive entirely from this House; and I know, that if the House of Commons was to cease to be what it now is, a branch of the Legislature, and a check and control upon the executive power, I must again return to the obfcurity of a dull and laborious profeffion. He was furprised the right honourable gentleman fhould now think fo ill of a learned Lord, with whom he had once formed a part of an administration, and whom he used to call a very manly man.

Mr. Fox replied, that he did not always remember his own expreffions: but he might have called that learned Lord by that name; and perhaps there was not a better proof in the world that it was well beftowed, than that that noble and learned Lord had been bold enough to hold out such language in public, as was that to which he alluded. He then did the right honourable gentleman at the head of the Treafury the juftice to fay, he did not believe him to be one of those who aimed at the life of the House of Commons.

The queftion was at length put, and carried without a divifion.

Lord Beauchamp then delivered a lift of members to the Speaker, and moved, that they be the Committee to inspect the Lords' Journals, and that they fit to-morrow.

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Lord Beauchamp, after referring to the report of the Committee (which was read) appointed on Thursday to infpect the Journals of the Houfe of Lords, afferted, that the House of Commons had acted in every refpect agreeable to its former confuetude on fubjects of a fimilar nature; and that

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this point might be the more fully evinced, he would move, "That a Committee be appointed to examine into the ufage of either House of Parliament to interpofe touching the exercife or non-exercife of difcretionary powers vefted in the fervants of the Crown, or in any body of men for public purposes, and to report the fame to the Houfe."

The motion being feconded, a Committee, of which his Lordship formed a part, was appointed accordingly.

The order of the day being called for, Commodore John- CommoStone rofe and faid, that before the Houfe came to any farther dore John refolutions, or went into farther confiderations on the ftate of the nation, he wished the honourable gentleman below him (Mr. Fox) would bring forward and exhibit his India bill, He had alledged it was ready; it was in his pocket. Why did he not produce it? It was to his obftinate refiftance on this fubject that the prefent ftagnation of public bufinefs was to be attributed. His Majefty, his Minifters, the Country, the Parliament, and the Company, looked with expectancy for the production of this new fyftem of reform; and till it was exhibited, he did not fee either how men in office could quit their stations, or the business of the nation be executed,

Mr. Fox contradicted the affertion, that public bufinefs Mr. Fox, was interrupted because his bill was not exhibited. He would tell the honourable gentleman who fpoke laft why the affairs of the nation were at a ftand. It was because a Miniftry perfifted in the retention of their offices, notwithstanding the Houfe had declared that they did not poffefs its confidence. Confidence is the ground of every government; and without confidence no government can be conducted, no administration can exift. At the prefent crifis there was a Ministry, but there was, in fact, no Government at all How long a defperate fet of men might think proper to dif turb the public happiness, to interrupt the progress of the great national affairs of this kingdom, he could not fay; but he wifhed it to be understood, that it was to them, and to their obftinacy, that all thofe difafters were to be attributed, which at prefent prefented themselves under fo many alarming afpects to the people of this country. He wished the Houfe to proceed with caution, with deference to Majefty, and with becoming moderation at the prefent threatening crifis. No circumftance could render their procedure either more refpectable or more efficacious than this. The Sovereign had declared his moft gracious intention to take into VOL. XIII.

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Lord Mahon.

confideration the refolutions of the House of Commons intimated to him. He wifhed, therefore, that the House would wave all farther procedure on points of fo much delicacy, till the effect of its former refolutions on the Royal mind were fully known. This was a mode of procedure which he thought became the dignity of the Houfe; and till fuch time as it was known what His Majefty's determinations were, whether he was refolved to follow the example of his illuftrious forefathers, or to purfue a different line of conduct, he thought it would be fit to poftpone the order of the day to Friday or Monday next, as might feem most agreeable to the fentiments of the Houfe.

Lord Mahon faid he did not by any means rife to oppose the adjournment which had just been moved. He only withed the right honourable gentleman, (Mr. Fox) to explain fome particulars of his conduct, and to fpeak the fame language in the Houfe. The fubject was the voice of the people. He had lately faid, that their voice was to be heard within thefe walls. There was a time when he reprobated that doctrine. The noble Lord held a paper in his hand, which contained a refolution of the Weftminster Committee, which he would read to the House. It was to this effect, and it was dated from the King's Arms tavern; that Lord North's faying the voice of the people of England was only to be heard in Parliament was unconftitutional. This refolution was figned Charles-James Fox. This inconfiftency he would be glad the right honourable gentleman would explain. There was ftill another point on which he thought his conduct required to be explained. He had heard him fome time ago fay, that it was not the intention of the Houfe to stop the fupplies: but a very different fentiment had escaped him last Thursday, in answer to the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Pitt) over the way; for then he had faid, that it was, în his apprehenfion, very improper to go on with the fupplies. These were things in which the noble Lord fhould be glad to be fet right, efpecially as he conceived no inconfiderable majority of the right honourable gentleman's constituents thought as he did. He had put these queftions, because he wifhed to act openly, and to bring forth an answer from the right honourable gentleman's own mouth. He should also like to debate the matter with him in the face of his conftituents to-morrow, where he hoped the right honourable gentleman would come forward and give them an opportunity of putting fuch interrogatories to him as it becomes the member of such a city to answer; and there he trusted the right

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honourable gentleman 'would learn from his reception, that the majority of his conftituents condemned his conduct.

Mr. Fox begged only to fay a few words in reply to what Mr. Fox. had fallen from the noble Lord, as he was well aware for what purpose thefe mifreprefentations were now made. The circumftances connected with the refolution of the Weftminfter Committee now read, which his Lordship had not stated, were, that he was at that time Chairman of the Committee, and often obliged to fign refolutions which he did not approve; that the noble Lord, on those violent measures, always voted against him, though he had no right to vote at all; and that confequently he might have figned the refolutions now mentioned, though he had voted against them. He did not, however, mean to deny the opinion imputed to him in that inftance: but because he thought it improper to fay, that the voice of the people was only to be heard in Parlia ment, did that imply, that therefore he adopted the converse propofition, that their voice was never to be heard there? Such a construction of his words was contrary to common fenfe; for he ever did, and he trusted he ever had held the House of Commons the natural and conftitutional organ by which the collective voice of the people was to be gathered, But then he begged to know whether the Houfe of Commons was now the fame with what it was when this refolution was produced? Had all that was done to purge the representation of what they thought unconstitutional been of no avail? Had all those ftruggles in which he had acted with the noble Lord, and other of his old friends, terminated in leaving the House of Commons in the fame corrupt ftate in which they found it? and with all that load of influence against the weight of the People in the fcale of the Conftitution, which, under the period and adminiftration referred to, deprived it of its neceffary popularity? The meaning, therefore, of the noble Lord was, that now the influence of the Crown was reduced, the House was lefs the organ of the people's fentiments than when that was the cafe. The difference confequently between the noble Lord and him was, that he contended for the People's influence, and his Lordship for that of the Crown. It was by this fort of equivocal language that the noble Lord was likely enough to impofe on many of his conftituents; and these were the miserable artifices by which the party who oppofed the majority of that House were affiduous to interest the public in their favour: but he was happy that it fell to his share in this manner to oppose the fenfe of the People to that of the Crown. It was the line of conduct he had al

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Sir Harry
Hoghton

ways and uniformly purfued, and in which, with fome refolution, in oppofition to much importunity and intereft, he had always perfifted; and he trufted those who differed from him on conftitutional ground would never have any better plea. The noble Lord's other accufation about the House's stopping the fupplies, was just as loosely and uncorrectly stated as his former. The statement at least now made had not accorded at any time with his ideas on the fubject; and he would rely on the recollection of the. Houfe, whether any words which had fallen from him could bear fuch an interpretation. Moft certainly the term of ftop, for example, had not been used by him on the occafion. It was a refource which the Conftitution placed in the Houfe for its own defence, but which ought not to be acted from but when authorifed by emergencies of the laft importance. It was, indeed, an effectual redress, but a redress which nothing but fome great and preffing neceffity could render eligible. He would not fay fuch an incident might not take place, as it was not eafy to fay in what the prefent circumftances of the country might terminate. But undoubtedly it was a step to which he would not confent for one, while it was in the power of the Houfe to adopt any other measure more moderate and pacific. His language, therefore, in anfwer to the right honourable gentleman, was mifreprefented. He had ufed the word poftpone, not flop; and on what principle had he done this? Because he could perceive no difpofition on the part of Minifters to confult the honour, the confequence of the Houfe, which is in fact the confequence of the people in this country. Much zeal, he understood, was used to procure addreffes from various parts of the kingdom, that they might at leaft give an appearance of popularity to the prefent Ministry. But thefe addreffes, confidering by whom' they were figned, and to what purpofe, fhould not be confidered by him as decifive. He defired any one who doubted this only to confult the Gazette, in which, those especially from fuch places as Wolverhampton and York, the numbers in both bore no proportion to the populace which thefe places contained.

Sir Harry Highton did not like this mode of speaking, as he thought it contained reflections on his conduct very undefervedly. He had acted with the noble Lord on the American war till he thought matters were pushed too far, and then he had withdrawn his fupport. He had alfo voted with

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