with Lord Shelburne for a peace, which he confidered as a good one. The Speaker put the honourable gentleman in mind that The Speahe was deviating altogether from the point in question, and ker. infifted on attending to the order of the House. Mr. Fox then faid he meant not to blame any one who Mr. Fox. figned the addreffes, as giving any opinion not their own. He doubted not but those whofe addrefs it was, had there expreffed what they thought; but he contended that they could not be understood to exprefs more; and in his opinion 160 was not a majority of above 10,000; nor could the addrefs of only the former, by any decent interpretation whatever, be called that of the latter. He therefore wifhed gentlemen would not confider themselves as affronted, when in the courfe of conversation those topics were difcuffed in which individuals, from the late revolutions in politics, might have acted with those with whom they acted no more. By indulging fuch a fpirit as this, it. would be abfolutely impoffible to debate any point without affecting almost every person both in the majority and minority. He believed his colleague as well as himself had not uniformly pleafed his conftituents. The noble Lord feemed to blame him much for a difference in fentiment, for which he did not, nor could take any blame to himfelf. He had been. called to meet the noble Lord in Westminster Hall, and there account for thofe things which had lately been laid to his charge. It had not often been imputed to him, that he had been very fhy of appearing publicly. Some people had rather blamed his forwardnefs in that refpect. However, he would always confult thofe on whofe judgments he de pended, with regard both to the time and place of fuch meetings. He hoped at the fame time that the moment would foon come when the fenfe of the people would, on the fubjects of prefent contention, be fully understood; that Englishmen would be fenfible whenever they could obtain full information of the danger there was in embracing the new doctrine of there being another reprefentation than in the Houfe of Commons. For his part, if they could admit an hereditary reprefentation, the matter was all over, and the dispute at an end. These mifrepresentations he was therefore obliged to refufe. He would advise the noble Lord not to push them too far, for mankind were not always to be deceived; and they would not be fo in the prefent cafe for any length of time. Lord Mr. Poxys. Lord Mahon attempted to explain what he had formerly advanced, but the Houfe would not liften to him. Mr. Powys affirmed that the conduct of members without doors was no official ground of charge againft them in the Houfe. If gentlemen were to found charges of this kind, and on fuch bottoms, it would be but to adjourn to Westminster Hall, or the Court of Requests. Lord John Sir Cecil Wray. Mr. Fox. Mr Eden. Sir Cecil Wray faid, that he had not the fame fentiments of the prefent diftractions with his honourable colleague. He informed the Houfe that he had attended a meeting of his constituents at the Shakespeare on Thursday laft. He had there met with a reception from fome gentlemen which he might not have expected. He called for the reafons of their conduct, but had obtained no fatisfactory ones. He owned that he might, amidst the present political diftractions, have loft fome old friends, but to compenfate for this he had obtained fome new adherents; and he did not doubt but that his colleague was precifely in the fame predicament. Sir J. Wrottesley affirmed that that he had presented was fairly obtained. Mr. Fox faid, that 160 people were by no means the proper representatives of a body confifting of 10,000. The motion was carried. February 10. Mr. Eden reminded the House, that a report was now lying on the table from the Committee appointed to enquire into the illicit trade carried on in this kingdom. There was a cafe which ought to be deemed part of the object of the enquiry of that Committee, but on which it did not venture to give an opinion, because there was actually pending in the Houfe a bill, which he hoped would anfwer every purpose that the Committee could wifh. The bill he alluded to was for the better enforcing the payment of the Receipt tax: that bill, however, owing to the present state of the nation, had been too long fuffered to remain unnoticed; and yet it was a matter of the greatest magnitude, as the tax, if properly enforced, would produce fo confiderable a fum as 5000l. a week. He did not mean mean to embarrass the prefent nominal Administration with questions on this fubject; it was one in which every member of the House was interefted, and therefore he hoped that both fides would concur in bringing forward, without any farther delay, a bill, through the want of which this country was weekly a lofer to a great amount. He called, therefore, upon the noble Lord who brought in the bill, to inform the Houfe when he intended to move to take it again into confideration. Exchequer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that as the bill was The Chanoriginally introduced by the noble Lord, his predeceffor, cellor of the he thought it not decent to take it out of his hands: for his own part, he thought that if it was the opinion of the House the tax should be fupported, it certainly would be proper to fend the bill to a Committee. Cavendish, Lord John Cavendish obferved, that though the tax was Lord John unpopular, it was not upon that account he had hitherto refrained from bringing the bill forward; but because the country, in the first place, was in a ftate of diftraction, and in the next, because there were fome difficulties in the claufes, which he hoped the gentlemen of the long robe would enable him to remove. For his own part, he thought the tax a very good one; the people had been taught to diflike it, before they felt the fmalleft inconvenience from it: but while he was fatisfied in his own mind that it was good, he was ready to take his fhare of the unpopularity of enforcing it, and therefore, with the leave of the House, he would take up the farther confideration of the bill on Thursday next. Mr. Huffey called upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Huffey. to declare whether he was a friend to the bill or not; for if he was not, it would be a very fingular circumstance indeed to see a member out of office attempt to carry a queftion of finance in that houfe, contrary, to the fenfe of His Majefty's Minifters: he did not hesitate to say, that he was himself a decided friend to the tax: he wished only to know whether the bill was to have the fupport of the Minifter of Finance. The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought he had already The Chan fufficiently explained himself on the fubject, by faying he cellor of the Excheques. had no objection to the commitment of the bill. If the tax was to fubfift at all, and the Houfe feemed to have decided that point before Christmas, it was proper it should be made as efficient as poffible; and therefore a bill which had V Mr. Fox. had for object to make it fo, ought unquestionably to be taken into confideration. When it fhould get into the Committee, there he would deliver his opinion upon it; but more he would not fay at prefent; and he thought it not a little strange that gentlemen should thus question a Minifter. Mr. Fox faid, that every thing in that Houfe was now fo new and fingular, that it was not matter of surprise to him that the right honourable gentleman fhould think the queftion put to him a fingular one: but formerly when Minifters and the House were both the defenders of the constitution, the former thought it not fingular that a refpectable and independent gentleman fhould put a queftion of a public nature to a fervant of the public; and what question did the honourable member put? A queftion of finance To whom? To the Minifter of finance. The Minister certainly acted as if he did not like the question; and he anfwered it just as if he wished to conceal his opinion; for he used ifs inftead of positive affertions. If the Houfe thought the tax fhould fubfift. That was not the language of a Minister who had a decided opinion. He knew that when the tax was firft propofed by his noble friend, the right honourable gentleman gave it his fupport; but he believed he was not in the house when the divifion took place before Christmas, on the question for repealing it. The tax was certainly unpopular; and he believed it would be impoffible to find a tax that should not be unpopular, if it was efficient; but it was the duty of every man to face unpopularity, as he and his noble friends were determined to do, in fupport of a measure which they conceived to be advantageous to the ftate. well Sir Harry Sir Harry Hoghton faid the tax was unpopular it was true; Hoghton. but he knew that in his part of the country it was very liked by all the thinking and more opulent fort of people. The Chancellor of the Mr. Burke, Mr. George Onflow, and Captain James Luttrell, faid a few words on the subject; and it was at laft determined that the House would on Thursday take the bill into confideration. The Chancellor of the Exchequer then moved that the reExchequer, port from the Committee on the ordnance estimates be brought up. Mr. Fox, Mr. Fox faid, that if the intention of gentlemen in office was to bring up the report this day, and leave it to be confidered by the Houfe on fome other day, he would not op pofe pofe the motion: but if it was their intention to take them then into confideration, he would moft affuredly vote against it. In the prefent fituation of affairs it was not furely expected that the House would proceed to vote fupplies until it should be known what anfwer his Majefty would give, or whether he would give any at all, to the refolutions which had been communicated to him. When fome information on that head fhould have been given, then it would be for the Houfe to confider what measures ought to be adopted: but in the prefent cafe, to give the fanction of the House to the refolutions of the Committee of Supply on the ordnance estimates, would be to carry on the most important bufinefs, and to execute the highest, and, as yet, the only undifputed privilege of the House of Commons, (how long it might remain fo he could not tell) that of voting money, while there was in reality no Government in this country; or, what might be deemed worfe, a Government exifting in defiance of that House. The privilege which this House still poffeffed, diftinct from the other two branches of the Legiflature, was that of voting money, as the reprefentatives of the people; but when bills were afterwards brought in, to carry these grants into law, then the House was acting merely legislatively, and discharging a function which was not peculiar to the Commons, but was common to the three eftates, namely, that of making laws. It was the vote, therefore, of the Houfe, ratifying the refolutions of the Committee of Supply, which granted money, and not merely the bill or bills founded upon this vote, which were only methods to enforce, by the authority of the Legiflature, the payment of money already voted by the Houfe of Commons; fo that in fact the vote upon the report now offered would be conclufive, and pledge the Houfe, and confequently it ought not to be called for until His Majefty's anfwer fhould be known. He understood there was an intention to re-commit the report; to this he had no objection; but he hoped no motion would be made that the report should be taken into confideration before Friday. cellor of the Exchequer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that though it The Chan might not be expected that a formal answer fhould be given by His Majefty, in confequence of the communication lately made to the Throne, as in case of an addrefs; ftill no doubt it was neceffary, that by fome means or other the House fhould be informed what line of conduct His Majefty inVOL. XIII. N tended |