Mr. Mafon-I must make one obfervation, which is, that by the Hon. Gentleman's own afsertion, the addrefs he has moved cannot anfwer the end he proposes. He fays, that no retrenchment can be made, but in the military establishment; but the military establishment for the enfuing year, has already paffed both in this House and in the Lords, and is now ready for the royal affent. I admit his Majefty can put a negative on it, but it is an undoubted prerogative of the crown rarely experienced, and odious to the people. Suppofing the crown willing to put a negative, would it not be reducing the House to the abfurdity of addreffing his Majefty to with-hold his affent from a bill we had ourfelves approved, and fent up to the throne ?

Mr. Molyneux-The grant of 4000l. a year additional falary to the Lord Lieutenant is so often dragged by the head and shoulders into the debates of this House, that it becomes necessary for me to fay fomething in its defence.

That measure daily meets a greater fhare of my approbation, in proportion as I the more confider it-infomuch that, were it yet undone, regardless of any thing that has been urged against it, I fhould be proud to father it. I would yet propofe that refolution, which feems to give gentlemen fo much uneafinefs.-I ftand here totally unconnected with adminiftration-I did not on that occafion confult them-nor did they urge me forwards. I thought an addition of 4000l. a year to the Chief Governor's falary was neceffary, in order to enable him to fupport the dignity of his fituation, in the manner the honour of a great nation required; and confcious that I was actuated by no finister views, I made a motion for the purpose. The motion was feconded by a very independent and refpectable member. But if my character is attacked, I fhall be found ready to defend it, both in the House and elsewhere. I took not the House by furprise-I gave fufficient notice why did not they attend? Are they to come here only for their amufement? If the measure was wrong, they should have opposed it.

Mr. Grattan-The Hon. Gentleman who moved this address, is very right when he fays, it is like the one I formerly had the honour to propofe in this Houfe, and only commendable or worthy of imitation; in its folicitation for a neceffary and laudable retrenchment, I am inclined to the opinion of that Hon. Gentleman, that a retrenchment cannot be attained by a foolish reliance on minifters, but by the proper interference of this House, in inftituting a minute detail, and a strict investigation of the articles of expenditure.

It must be acknowledged, however, that the affairs of this kingdom now wear a very different afpect from what they did when I had the honour of moving that addrefs. The Hon. Gentleman fays, "that the hope of retrenchment from the fervants

of the crown, was then vain." I am fenfible of the truth of the obfervation. The avenues to information were barred and obftructed; there was a total indifpofition in minifters to stop the tide of prodigality. Economy was rejected, and oppofition was given to the forming of any committee for pointing out fuch objects as required to be curtailed. An addrefs at that time was a fort of a forlorn hope; an appeal from parliament to the throne. But how much more dignified is our present fituation, without relying on our increafing revenue, and our greater hopes of revenue! Before the moving of this addrefs we went into a committee, which was not moved for with a defign to procraftinate, but to gain neceffary information. Papers have been called for, which almost any administration would refuse, and when fuch papers are duly confidered, fome expedient may be devised, which may answer the intended purpose better than this addrefs.

The military establishment, as already obferved, is fixed for the enfuing year, and no doubt fome confiderable favings will be made in the military extraordinaries. The minifter who ftrikes off 66,000l. at one time, deferves, in my opinion, fome credit, as in that he does more than any one of his predeceffors; and fo far ftands acquitted of the charge of prodigality.

I do not wish that gentlemen should run away with an opinion, that a committee is the grave of public business; for the whole business of the nation is done in committees. The commiffioners have been mentioned, but I have reason to believe, that I shall have their fupport in the work of retrenchment.

There has been a charge brought against administration, for having promised that no new tax fhould be laid, and afterwards breaking that promife; but nothing has been done, but mere regulations of trade, calculated to favour our own manufactures; and these, as far as they operate, may be confidered as protecting duties - the duties fo ardently defired by the people.

Much has been faid about the Lord Lieutenant's additional falary. I can only fay, it has my warm difapprobation. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Attorney General) communicated to me the converfation he had the honour of holding with his Excellency on the occafion; but as I did not imagine that such a matter would be forced upon his Excellency against his will, I thought it unneceffary to come to the Houfe, and therefore went to the country. But though I am certain of the honourable intentions of the gentleman who made the motion, yet I deem it a very filly act of prodigality.

Mr. Secretary Pelham affured the House of his fincere intention, to give every aid in his power to affift the committee to forward a plan of retrenchment.

Mr. Crookbank applauded the motives that he was confident induced the Hon. Gentleman to move for the addrefs; that he was himself as warm an advocate as any man for retrenching the expences of government, as far as it was practicable, confiftent with the dignity and the intereft of the nation, and there was a time, he faid, when such a motion as the present might have been made with great propriety-a time when government was running into every extravagance-when the revenue of the country was finking under the expence, and under the impulfe of a fettered conftitution and a fhackled commerce. But thofe times are no more, our conftitution and our commerce are now free-our revenue has increased, is increasing, and likely to increase more-Did the Hon. Gentleman know that the duties and aids applicable to the loans and intereft had increased in the laft two years above 74,000l. and that the pension lift which had been fwelled above 100,000l. was then reduced to little more than 80,000l.-He called upon the Hon. Gentleman to point out in what inftance the prefent administration had fhewn an extravagance; that-if there was none, as he was confident was the cafe, it would be ungenerous in the House to agree to a measure that would imprefs the idea, for neither the King nor the people would ever believe the commons would interfere without fome caufe. Gevernment, like individuals, had their feelings; and who was the man, conscious of his own integrity and rectitude of conduct, that would not be hurt by a measure reflecting on that which he was moft chafte in?-He would therefore vote against the address.

Sir Edward Newenham.-The Right Hon. Member who spoke laft but two has fo candidly committed himself to bring forward a plan of retrenchment in the civil lift; and as I have a full reliance upon his integrity and affertion in this respect, I think the motion premature-we should firft lay a plan of retrenchment, mark each specific article of extravagance, and then addrefs his Majefty to remove the grievance complained of; let us have indifputable evidence to lay before the throne-but I cannot agree to this old hackneyed mode of getting rid of conftitutional queftions. Some Right Hon. Members, when they pretended to be warm in the caufe of Ireland, reprobated that difgraceful mode of evading facts; but thofe men have passed the Rubicon-all Ireland will now join with me in saying, Tigris agit rabida, cum Tigrida pacem.

I hope the Right Hon. Member (the Attorney General) will withdraw his previous queftion, and let the addrefs be debated with candour, and not for ever fink us by his majorities. Sir Henry Cavendifb fpoke for the addrefs.

Mr. Hartley begged leave to take notice of fome words that fell from a Right Hon. Gentleman (the Attorney General)-He

had faid, that the diftreffes of the poor were more owing to their idlenefs and drunkennefs, than to any other cause. If that Right Hon. Gentleman had paid as close attention to a committee as he had done, he would find that the caufe was the great importation of manufactures into this country.

On the queftion being put, for going into the order of the day, it was carried in the affirmative, without a division.

Before the Speaker left the chair, Sir Henry Cavendish faid, there was an illegal practice exifted in the mode of king's letters, figned by the lords of the treatury: he had it in idea to have a bill framed, to difqualify every perfon but the Lord Lieutenant from paying money on king's letters.

The Attorney General faid, that notwithstanding the king's fign. manual, and that counterfigned by the Lords of the treafury, a fhilling could not be had without a warrant from the Lord Lieutenant and therefore the Hon. Baronet might reft satisfied on that head.

The House went into a committee on the bill for establishing a high court of admiralty in this kingdom, Mr. Solicitor General in the chair. Went through the bill-Reported.

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 10, 1783.

The House in committee, went through the bill to prevent bribery and corruption in electing members to ferve in parliament. Reported, and ordered to be engroffed.

The bill for relief of infolvent debtors, was read a fecond time, and ordered to be committed.

Several petitions from infolvents were prefented, praying relief. Ordered to lie on the table.

The House in a committee, went through the qualification bill.-Reported, and ordered to be engroffed.

Mr. Alexander Montgomery prefented a petition from the furriers of the city of Dublin.-Referred to Mr. Gardiner's committee.

The admiralty bill, read, paffed, and ordered to the Lords. Captain Brooke's loan bill was read a fecond time, and committed for to-morrow.

On a motion of Mr. Brooke, the clerk of the peace, of the county of Tyrone was ordered to attend this Houfe on Monday fe'nnight.

Y

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 11, 1783.

Mr. Dennis Daly, chairman of the county Cork committee, reported that the Right Hon. Lord Kingsborough was duly elected for faid county.

A meffage from the Lords, that they agreed without any amendment, to the bill for facilitating the trade with America, the mutiny bill and fmall beer bill.

Mr. Burton, chairman of the county Weftmeath committee, moved that Robert Sharman, Michael Daly, John Geoghegan, and two other perfons, be ordered into the cuftody of the Serjeant at Arms, for refufing to attend the faid committee.-Ordered accordingly.

Captain Burgh.-There has occurred on the city of Cork petition, a moft flagrant instance of direct perjury. By order of the committee, I now report it to the Houfe, for them to proceed in it as they fhall think proper. He then moved, that Thomas Millar fhould be brought to the bar of the Houfe; which being done, he moved that the faid Thomas Millar should be committed to the new jail.

Mr. Chatterton entreated the Houfe, for the honour of the city of Cork, to proceed with as much rigour as the cafe .would

admit.

The Speaker called on Thomas Millar to make his defenceto which he replied that he confeffed his fault, and threw himfelf on the Houfe for forgiveness.

No perfon interceding for him, he was fent to jail.

A new writ was ordered for the borough of Bangor.

Mr. Chatterton.-As there will be feveral petitions received from perfons foliciting the benefit of the act of grace, who perhaps are not at this inftant in cuftody, and whom it was not the intention of the propofers to exclude, I fhall move you, that the committee of the whole Houfe to whom the bill is referred, fhall have permiffion to admit a claufe to that purpose.

Sir Henry Cavendish moved an amendment-" which perfons are now actually refiding in the kingdom;"-this, he faid, was to prevent any perfons from being able to furprise their creditors.--Ordered accordingly.

Sir Henry Hartftonge moved, that all perfons foliciting the benefit of the act, thould be confidered as paupers, and excused fees. Ordered.

Mr. Toler reported from the committee appointed to try the Baltimore election, that Arthur Gore, commonly called Lord Sudley, was duly elected for the borough of Baltimore; that