bers and would probably reach them from one to two days earlier than if they were sent to the local secretary and distributed by him. By the plan of the committee the local secretary would not only have to go to the trouble of redistributing them, but of paying two cents local postage. We mail them from New York City at one cent per pound. When the regular mail edition did not go out, the general secretary even then could mail from this office direct to the members and save a day's time. That appears to me a technical objection to the plan suggested.

DR. EMERY:-I second the amendment.

MR. PHELPS-I think Mr. Pope has presented an extremely valuable point and has corrected the committee in an important matter. As a member of the committee I can say that I believe the impression of the committee was-it was my own impression-that at present the advance copies of papers were only sent out within a restricted district. I was not aware that they went to the entire membership of the INSTITUTE. If that is the case I can readily see that some amendment to this section is desirable.

THE SECRETARY-I would say further, Mr. President, that ordinarily it is my purpose to get them in the mail on Saturday night. In that case they reach Chicago, for instance, on Monday morning, at the same time that they are distributed in New York City, which is perhaps two or three days in advance of the meeting.

MR. PHELPS: -Then they are, as a matter of fact, sent to the entire list of members?

THE SECRETARY:-They are all mailed at the same time.

MR. HAMMER:-A change of a few words here would meet the difficulty, I think. "Wherever local meetings shall have been provided for, as in the foregoing section, the local honorary secretary shall be supplied by the Secretary of the INSTITUTE with a number of advance copies of papers to be read before the INSTITUTE, which copies of papers he shall distribute to the members 'at' their local meeting", using the word "at" instead of "before". It seems to me that the insertion of those three words would cover that point, and not at all interfere with Mr. Pope's suggestion.

THE PRESIDENT:-Mr. Hammer moves to amend as follows: To insert after the word "with" "a number of ", making it read "with a number of advance copies "; and to strike out the word "before" and substitute the word "at", making the clauses read "which copies he shall distribute to the local members at their local meetings"; making the whole clause read as follows:

"Wherever local meetings shall have been provided for as in "the foregoing section, the local honorary secretary shall be sup"plied by the Secretary of the INSTITUTE With a number of ad66 vance copies of papers to be read before the INSTITUTE, which copies he shall distribute to the local members at their local "meetings".

MR. PHELPS-I suggest the insertion of the word "suitable" -a suitable number.

THE PRESIDENT:-Do you accept that?

MR. HAMMER: Yes, sir.

SECRETARY POPE:-I suggest the substitution of the word "may" for "shall".

THE PRESIDENT:-Gentlemen, are you ready to vote on the amendment?

Those in favor of amending Paragraph D of Section 3, as read, will signify their assent by saying aye-contrary minded,

no.

[The motion was carried.]

THE PRESIDENT:-Now we will take a vote on the article as amended.

MR. MARTIN-I would like to ask for information, Mr. President, about this very important point as it seems to me. The local honorary secretary is burdened with transmitting to the Secretary of the INSTITUTE the discussion at the local meetings. I would like to understand how that is to be done and what it would lead up to, and where we shall come out.

DR. EMERY:-There is a further point-who is to discuss the papers? That raises the question at once of local membership of this society. It was attempted at one time to get some revenue from such discussions, but it is not well to bring that question up now, but only to see that it must be met sometime. The question is whether we shall say the discussions shall be by members of the INSTITUTE only.

THE PRESIDENT:-We will take these two points up separately. Mr. Martin wishes to ask how the discussions shall be obtained by the local honorary secretary. Shall they be stenographic reports? MR. MARTIN: We have already decided, I think that is the understanding, that this Rule VI is not to have a great deal of influence upon us in the discussion of this matter, but it is provided in the rule that any member or associate may introduce a stranger in the meeting and that the latter shall not take part in the discussion except with the consent of the meeting. If we apply that rule to such meetings it seems to me we have protected ourselves with a safeguard against any such contingency.

THE PRESIDENT:-I think it would be well to put a clause in that no stranger shall take part in the discussions or proceedings of such meetings. Would you add without the consent of the meeting?

MR. MARTIN:-My idea is that as far as possible, without in any way limiting the liberty of the meeting, but in order to get harmonious and similar action everywhere, the conditions should be the same everywhere, so that the paper is discussed at each meeting under like conditions. Now we make a provision here

in this rule in regard to the people who should be allowed to take part in the proceedings, and such a limitation, it seems to me. would be just as pertinent anywhere else as it is here in New York. That is the point I am making. It seems to me that we do not want to dictate to any local meeting any more than is necessary, but it would be very awkward indeed to have a lot of discussion tumbling in upon the Secretary from people who have been invited to speak and then after their remarks have been accepted to have them ruled out at some subsequent time. Even chairmen of committees come under that ordeal occasionally, and it is not at all pleasant.

THE PRESIDENT:-Do you make a motion to that effect?

MR. MARTIN:-I would make a motion that that clause be added that any member or associate may introduce a stranger to the meeting, but the latter shall not take part in the proceedings without the consent of the meeting.

THE PRESIDENT:-I understand Mr. Martin to have made this motion. That there be added to Section D of Article 3 of this report the following: "Any member or associate may intro"duce a stranger to any meeting, but the latter shall not take "part in the proceedings without the consent of the meeting." Mr. Martin's amendment was adopted.]

MR. MARTIN: There is a further question I want to raise here, and that is about getting that report. As I understand it, these local secretaries will do this work out of love for the INSTITUTE, and in one way or another there will be plenty of work for the secretary. Do we expect him to make us a precis of what takes place, or do we expect him to get a stenographer and send in a full verbatim report of whatever takes place there? Or what do we want?

THE PRESIDENT:-I think that would be left to them.

MR. PHELPS:—If I may be permitted, I think the committee was very desirous of not prescribing any very particular rule or method for these local meetings. It was desired to leave them as far as possible to their own devices. Now, it would be obviously to the interest of those local meetings to take their own meassures for having accurate reports of what they do, and send them here. The publication being under the same restrictions as the publication of proceedings here. There would be very little difficulty on the part of the editing committee, to dispose of them. I think it would be best to leave them to their own devices in that regard.

MR. MARTIN:-As it stands, the remarks made in these meetings here in New York, are taken down in full and that is done at the expense of the INSTITUTE. We may consider ourselves a meeting of the INSTITUTE, and practically are, for all purposes, at the present minute. But whether we like it or whether we do not, we are simply the New York section of the INSTITUTE sitting here to-night, as a matter of fact, in the constitution of the

meeting to-night. Now I think we want to get these things as nearly as possible on an equal footing with equal liberty all

around.

THE PRESIDENT:-Were it not for the fact that we are not discussing that, I would like to ask Mr. Martin's reasons for that statement.

MR. MARTIN:-Excuse me, sir. We have probably coming before us, at an early date, a paper by a Chicago member, and the discussion very likely may take place largely in Chicago. Now I think that we would like to have that discussion as full as possible, and I think we want to have a pretty clear understanding how that is going to be done; at our expense, or whether the local members who are to take part in that, having already paid their subscriptions to the INSTITUTE, are to make an additional subscription for the sake of getting their remarks into print, I really think it is a very material and essential point.

THE PRESIDENT:-I understood you to say that whether we like it or not, we are sitting here-will the stenographer read it? [The stenographer read Mr. Martin's remarks.]

We are

THE PRESIDENT:-That I take exception to, as President of the AMERICAN INSTITUTE OF ELECTRICAL ENGINEERS. not the New York section, but we are the INSTITUTE.

MR. MARTIN :-Well, Mr. President, I like to hear such sentiments from yourself, being a Philadelphian. [Laughter.] But I am glad to stand up here to-night and say I believe that that feeling I expressed is largely the feeling of the members throughout the country, and in every word I say, and in every remark I make upon the subject, I am trying to consider the interest of these men. If there is anything we can do to-night that would give us a larger membership in any of those places than we have to-day, if instead of having thirty members in Chicago we can get three hundred, I think that, as members of the INSTITUTE, seeking its best and its largest interest, we should take just that action which will secure us that number of members.

Ι

THE PRESIDENT:- I am rather sorry that the discussion has taken this phase. Yet I never object to taking the bull by the horns when I meet him. It only shows that what I said early in the meeting, as to the danger I apprehended in the near future coming from this tendency to divide into sections, has come somewhat sooner than I thought it would. But that is the question that we have to meet. Now I question whether any very great majority of us here would at all like to be considered as the New York section, and I question whether the truest interests of the AMERICAN INSTITUTE OF ELECTRICAL ENGINEERS would be at all subserved by any such feeling. There must be some ruling, governing body, and we are as competent to be that here-I do not say that out of any local pride-we are more competent to be that here, because the INSTITUTE had its birthplace practi

cally here, and has had its home here for some time, and I do think, especially at the present time, when the INSTITUTE appears to be entering on a career of usefulness, that we ought to be exceedingly careful in our legislation how we permit anything to enter into our ranks which will tend to separation rather than concentration, to dilution rather than concentration.

MR. MARTIN :-I have had the pleasure of spending a month recently in Chicago, where I have spoken with many of our distant members. The one desire of those men is to have no division or separation, but to remain in the INSTITUTE and to get the most they can out of it, and they think they can get the most out of it, that they can help to increase its influence, its reputation, and its glory by having some such arrangement as we are working for to-night. What that may lead us to, I do not know. This a country where the federal system has won its greatest triumphs, and I think we can adopt that system in the INSTITUTE just as well as in our national government.

THE PRESIDENT:-I am very glad to hear Mr. Martin say that. For the point that struck considerable alarm in my heart was the statement which still rankles in my mind that we are the New York section.

MR. MARTIN: I will say the New York and Philadelphia section, if that will please you, sir.

MR. A. E. KENNELLY: Concerning the question raised by Mr. Martin, suppose that a paper from a section is brought to New York to be read, that by reason of the attendant circumstances most of the discussion of that paper will take place at the locality where its author resides; under the arrangement that is suggested in this report there is no provision for a stenographic report except at the expense of the local members. It would be impossible to make arrangements generally for stenographic reports. When all the local sections that meet under such a régime come into existence, that matter would surely have to be undertaken at the outset at least, by the local sections themselves, and if any such assemblage finds that it cannot undertake a stenographic report, surely the individual speakers are capable of writing their own reports and transmitting them through the secretary.

THE PRESIDENT:--Do I understand Mr. Martin wishes to add any further amendment to D?

MR. MARTIN-I simply threw out those remarks for discussion. This committee's report, as a whole, is very wise and is so liberal, so broad in its scope, that there is really very little to improve upon. But at the same time I think we want to understand clearly and fully what we are doing. When we see these bulls we want to take them by the horns and throw them. If we simply let these points slide now, I think we will regret by and by that we passed them over in this graceful and elusive manner.

MR. R. O. HEINRICH :-The amendment of Mr. Martin is covered in the Rules of the INSTITUTE, and I beg to ask the question how