THE HISTORY OF THE PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, In the SECOND SESSION of the Seventeenth Parliament of GREAT BRITAIN, Appointed to be holden at WESTMINSTER, Thursday, 3d May, 1792. MR. Chancellor PITT moved the order of the day, which was, that the bill for the encouragement of the growth of timber, for the naval service, in the New Foreft, in the county of Southampton, be committed to a Committee of the whole House. Mr. FOX faid, there did not appear to him to be any particular urgency, that made it neceffary that the bill should pafs this feffion, and therefore he thought it better to wait till they had received all the reports that were to come from the Committee, and taken the whole into confideration, previous to the House coming to a vote upon it. There were in the prefent bill, several matters that appeared to him to be exceedingly objectionable; in particular, the changing copyholds, and even leaseholds, into freeholds. The right honourable genVOL. XXXIII. B tleman, when he first opened the bill, had done it rather flightly, and had not faid a word in explanation of various important confiderations to which the provisions of the bill referred. Upon the whole, he, for one, did not by any means approve of the fyftem, with refpect to the Crown lands and forests, that the right honourable gentleman had adopted; and he repeated it, that he faw no urgency for the bill's paffing this feffion. Mr. Chancellor PITT faid, when he had introduced the bill, he had fully opened the nature and extent of it, but that the House were in poffeffion of what must have given to those who wished to understand the subject of the bill, much more fatisfactory information than any opening of his could do, viz. the Reports of the Committee then upon their table. He ftated, that the New Foreft, from its fituation, lay moft convenient for the transport of timber for the ufe of the navy either to Portsmouth or Plymouth. That it had been found to be in fuch a condition, that if proper care was not immediately taken, no timber fit for the public fervice could be produced there for many years; that, on the contrary, under the provifions of the bill, a confiderable quantity might be yielded in a few years. He fummarily mentioned the object of the feveral clauses, and shewed that they were, with great pains, and, he trusted, with fome fuccefs, adapted to the nature and circumstances of the cafe. He explained upon what principle it was that the copyholds were to be converted into freeholds; stated the whole doctrine of eftovers; and faid, the property of the Crown would not be injured by the bill, but, on the contrary, would be very confiderably improved, and the New Forest be rendered productive of revenue in an eminent degree, which would be applicable to the public fervice. Lord SHEFFIELD faid, it had been his opinion, that the best means of rendering the Foreft lands advantageous to the Public, would be by making them private property, not merely for the fake of the money for which they thould fell, and the expence that would be faved, but because the lands would become, in private hands, infinitely more productive. Since he had confidered the subject more fully, he was disposed to think it might be advifeable to keep the forests in the hands of the Crown, that is, if they are to be regulated entirely for the growth of timber; the great distance of the profit, the want of competition for large timber, and the confequent inadequate price, difcouraged individuals from fuffering trees to grow to that fize, which was neceffary for our great fhips; and he thought he might venture to fay, that in a fhort time there would be no large timber in the country, except, perhaps, in the parks of men of fortune, or in forefts. The eleventh Report of the Commiffioners is well worth the attention of the House, and is very fatisfactory on this fubject. He then said, that he wished the bill had no other object but the encouragement of the growth of timber. He hoped that part of it which allots fo confiderable a number of acres for deer, the greatest enemies of trees, would be given up. The Royal Family could derive little or no fatisfaction from the intended Park, at fuch a distance; befides the lofs of the land, it would be a fource of expence, and could answer no purpose but to furnish perquifites and occafion abufe. He obferved, that the fyftem of inclosing land for the growth of timber, and then laying it open, was abfurd; when opened, there was an end to all fucceffion of young trees. He faid, the foreft, under fuch regulations, would not produce fo much timber as half the quantity of land regulated as were the woods of individuals. It would be better to allot the lands least favourable to the growth of timber to thofe who had claims, in lieu of all rights, and to inclose the rest for ever. He hoped there was an intention to bring forward a general bill for the encouragement of the growth of timber, and that fome of the principles of the present bill would be adopted, particularly that part which enfranchifes copyholds from all those mifchievous manerial rights which check improvements. He said, he refided in that part of the kingdom where oak timber is fuppofed to grow the best; that paffing through the country, the copyhold lands were immediately distinguishable by their nakedness; for that no copyholder would fuffer a tree to grow till it became timber, and to encumber the land for the benefit of the Lord. He knew the extent of the mischief, and that it was great; and therefore, if fome more proper perfon did not, he should, another feilion, propofe to the House a bill for the enfranchifement of all copyhold lands in refpect to timber, for an adequate compensation ; and alfo to free them, as the prefent bill propofes, from heriots, reliefs, and fines, at the will of the Lord, thofe difgufting re mains of the worst kind of feudal rights, which are of little benefit to the Lords of Manors, and are oppreffive and mifchievous in a great degree. He fhould not propofe to take away any rights that were neceffary to the amusement of the owners of the manors. He only wished that copyholds might be timber free, and that heriots and arbitrary fines might be compensated; one checked improvement in the breed of cattle, and the other in respect to buildings and agriculture. He added, nothing could be more odious than the custom of the bailiffs of the Lords of Manors hovering round the house of a person on his death-bed, and the moment that the family is in the greatest distress, rushing in to seize the best cattle, or best furniture; and if they do not find enough to their mind, seizing favourite dogs. He concluded by saying, we had better part with such unworthy and unneceffary privileges for a valuable compenfation, than wait till they have been wrested from us with all the violence that has been experienced in a neighbouring kingdom. Mr. FOX ftill thought, that it made no manner of difference, whether the bill paffed this feffion, or a feffion or two hence, at least that part of it which related to the conversion of copyholds and leafeholds into freeholds. Sir JOHN CALL gave some reasons in fupport of the bill, the neceffity of which he strenuously urged. After farther debate, the bill paffed through the Committee, and was ordered to be reported this day. Sir BENJAMIN HAMMET moved, "That the report "of the Committee on the bill for making the estates of bank"ers and other traders fubject to the payment of their debts "after their decease, be taken into confideration on Tuesday "next." The ATTORNEY GENERAL faid, that this bill was of an extraordinary nature, and he was convinced would be of fo dangerous a tendency, that he should move that the farther confideration should be postponed to this day three months. He faid that gentlemen, when they allowed it to be proceeded in, were not aware what fort of a bill it was. there would be an end at once to all the law made between simple contract debts, If allowed to pass, diftinction which the and debts specially. If a banker had an estate of 10,000l. a year, fome unthinking persons might, if this bill paffed, think they had this estate as a fecurity for the money they fhould depofit, when the next hour this estate might be mortgaged to the amount of 9000l. a year or more, fo that in fact this would be no fecurity whatever, but be a lure and falfe fecurity of bankers to the destruction of the property of unwary perfons. The proper, and the only fair way by which bankers could be estimated, and the fafety of dealing with them be depended upon, was from the candour and probity of their tranfactions, and the established reputation and folvency of their house as bankers, not the amount of their real estate. He complimented bankers in the metropolis in general on their character, but lamented the late increase of them fo much over different parts of the country. It was hardly possible to go into a country village now, where the Red Lion was not on one fide, and a banker's fhop on the other. He faid, that this bill was much too loosely wordedBankers and other traders thus could not be defined; it required at least the fummer to confider how a bill that might fo materially affect trade, fhould be framed. He, therefore, moved, That instead of the words "Tuefday next," be inserted the words "this day three months." Mr. DRAKE faid, he had been inclined on first hearing of the bill to wish well to it, and he believed he had fignified his intention of giving it his fupport. But in confequence of what had fallen from the right honourable and learned gentleman, he rose to confefs his penitence and make his retractation. He conceived the House to have been much indebted to the honourable and learned gentleman for having opened their eyes to the danger of the bill, and he trusted that they fhould in future have the benefit of that honourable gentleman's abilities, and that he would faithfully discharge that most effential duty of attending to the bills that were introduced into that House, watching their conftruction, correcting what was erroneous in them, and preventing them from paffing with that shameful inaccuracy that characterized too many of their bills, and disgraced their ftatute books. Mr. Drake declared he should vote for the amendment. Sir BENJAMIN HAMMET defended his bill, and endeavoured to prevail on the House to fuffer it to wait for decifion till another day. He pointed out the difference between |