Sir Rob. Carr seconds the motion for tomorrow, to consider Anticipations and Supply. Sir Tho. Meres would have that ancient Order, which Lee mentioned, read. When that Order is lost, the house of commons is lost. If there be occasion for Supply, let us see it at a grand committee. Mr. Neale has heard, that the Lord Treasurer has brought the State of the Revenue into the Council. Would see that here, to be your guide the better, in what you are to do; and moves, that all the money may be employed to the use we give it, on penalty of treason. The Order mentioned was read, viz. "That a motion being made for a Supply, is not presently to be entered upon, in the house, but the consideration referred to a committee of the whole house." Mr. Sacheverell is willing to take Anticipations upon the Customs, and the King's Debts, into consideration, as soon as may be: to be plain, he believes there is no need of a Supply, when things shall be well considered. Sir Tho. Meres sees there is no occasion of a Supply as plain as the sun that shines, and believes he can make it out: no man has yet made a direct motion but Holland, which is a conditional one, and a very good one; so that a committee cannot go upon it, without being first moved by some-body. of trade-The fleet neglected, and his nearest a Grand Committee; therefore moves for it and most powerful neighbours so armed-The to-morrow. French, by over-balance of our trade-When you were told, the last meeting, that the French commodities imported, over-balance to the value of 900,000l. and though London is not very sensible of this, yet the country, from whence supply must come, is impoverished by it. The Chimney-money and Excise, brought hither, and the nobility's expences, increase the consumption here, and hither the money will come. By this means, the country, in some places, is drained of money, and, by reason of the cheapness of all commodities, farms are cast into gentlemens hands, and no hopes of remedy on their parts; and the farmers come here, and set up taverns, and alehouses, and keep lodgings, and there are no hopes of their return back into the country. The humour of the yeomanry is changed; the youth are not bred up as they used to be. This, in short, is our condition; and yet, for the king's necessity, as well as our safety, the king must have supply; else the people cannot be protected; but, if the charge of the government be greater than the people can bear, the government cannot stand, though supported by arms. But, should it be so endeavoured, it cannot be long endured by the temper of the English nation. Would to God he could say, this was not our condition! There is a necessity that it must be said. He cannot but think himself bound in conscience to take this opportunity to say, that the charge of the government is greater than the nation can bear-Cannot but say, the expences of the Court may be reduced; especially the matters of the Treasury may be better managed. The truth is, the prodigal and excessive way of living now, was unknown to our "All this time, the principal business at forefathers, who kept hospitality. It is a Whitehall had been to inspect the Revenue, leprosy that has almost overspread the nation. and to put the Disbursements on such a footHears an unusual discontent, and want will puting, that the growing frugality of the house of men upon desperate resolutions, and from that arose those unhappy times we had.-This may bring us again into the unhappy hands we were in; and we shall be an easy prey and conquest to whoever will over-run us-Was, am, and ever will be, for the due rights of this house, and against the peers encroachments; would not give, and, he hopes, the house will not be ready to take, new occasion of difference. Upon the whole, moves to enter into a present consideration of an humble Petition to the king, with the lords councurrence, in which, in all dutiful, modest, and loyal manner we may represent to him the present poverty of the nation, together with the mischiefs of unseasonable prorogations; and that we be continued without prorogation, until we have dispatched Bills for the security of Religion and Property; and then declare, that we will give Supply to provide shipping and stores, to be equal, if not stronger than our neighbours.' Sir Tho. Lee. When he considers the old course of parliament, what has been moved is not the usual way: upon your books, a motion being made for a Supply, the house went into Mr. Secretary Coventry moved it. Sir John Ernly must inform the house, that we want a squadron of ships, and 30 at least, of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rates; therefore seconds Coventry, for Supply for building of Ships. commons might the less affect both king and minister for the time to come. By a Paper of the Lord Treasurer's dated Sept. 29, 1675, and presented to the Council Oct. 8, it appears, that the annual Disbursements amounted to 1,887,770l. the Revenue to 1,358,000l. which was clogged with Anticipations, to the value of 866,9547.; and yet by a general Account of all the Receipts and Issues in the Exchequer, it farther appears, that between the 20th of June 1673, and the 25th of June 1675, 4,529,6491. &c. had been received, and 4,526,9451. 3s. 3d. discharged. This scrutiny gave rise to a Scheme of Retrenchments, by which an annual saving was to be made of 250,000l. On the other hand, all imaginable expedients were put in practice, to make the Exchequer rise higher than ever; insomuch, that even the smallest branches were not forgotten and particular orders were sent from the Lord Treasurer to the several officers, to know exactly what their yearly value was; how the same arose; how charged; how accounted for; and how far it was improveable." Ralph. Resolved, "That this house will to-morrow, resolve into a Grand Committee, to take into consideration that part of his majesty's Speech, which relates to a Supply for taking off Anticipations upon his majesty's Revenue, and building more ships." Mr. Howard's Answer to the Committee reported.] Oct. 19. Sir T. Littleton, and the rest of the gentlemen mentioned, who were sent to Mr. Howard, reported, That, in obedience to the order of the house, they went to Mr. Howard, to demand of him, whether he signed, or owned, the Paper then produced to him? Who replied, Gentlemen, being informed of some displeasure of the house of commons (for whom I always had, and ever shall have, a most dutiful regard) I doubt, that, if I should give any Answer to your Message, being a person unexperienced in such affairs, I might give occasion of their displeasure; and therefore I must beg your pardon; and I must answer only to what can be proved against me; and, in the mean time, I do now again, as I did, before Mr. Collingwood, to the Speaker, promise, upon my word and honour, not to question any person for any thing relating thereunto." Debate thereon.] Mr. Sacheverell moves to have him committed to the Tower. Mr. Powle. For a private gentleman to vilify your members with the terms of unworthy, biassed senators, barbarous incendiaries, busy members! If men without doors may do this it takes away liberty of speech. Former times have had nothing like it; only in queen Eliz.'s time, Arthur Hall, who was a member, (this gentleman none) for publishing a libellous book, called Opera Tenebrarum,' was called to the bar, and giving no satisfactory answer, was committed to the Tower, and fined 500l. and not to return thence until he had given satisfaction; and hopes this gentleman will be so punished. Mr. Mallet would put the thing in a way of proof, since Howard puts it upon you: there is another precedent, of Withers the poet, which, if true, does us justice: he requires it, and would vindicate the members reflected on. The Speaker knows not when you have sent for a man in custody, upon no other ground than what is before you. Mr. Sec. Williamson. If the gentleman refused to appear, and you had the proofs before you, then it would be proper to send for him in custody. He would have a better answer than is yet given; but sending for in custody is a kind of punishment before proof. Sir Ch. Harbord. The offence is yet neither | proved nor confessed: would have a day's time; and if he cannot come, he may be brought hither, before you commit him. Sir Tho. Littleton. Knows the gentleman, and has a value for him; but nobody will deny this to be a breach of privilege. To the purpose: a man, you suppose, has broken your privilege, and he keeps his bed, and you send to him, and he will not tell you whether he has broken your privilege or no. You send for men, upon presumption of breach of privilege. If the gentleman cannot come to attend you, he may remain in custody of the serjeant. It has been a hundred times done in breach of privilege only. Sir John Ernly looks upon committing Howard as a pre-judging him, it not appearing to be his act sending for him in custody is a punishing him: would you have a man confess a thing against himself? Go in the common way; send for him, but not in custody. Sir Rob. Howard is as much for the honour of the house as any man, although related to this gentleman. When you send for him, and he appears, and you censure him, he will abide by that censure. Sir John Birkenhead. You send for people in custody, when afraid of an escape. He is a prisoner before you send for him, by his lameness of the gout: when a felon is upon his trial, he must speak with his shackles off, at as much ease as may be. The loss of his brother, whom he loved more than his own life, might make him utter, it may be, something he should not. Lord Cavendish. The words, the paper says, he should say of col. John Howard (whom he knew not) are, That it was a just judgment he was killed;' which was a foolish thing; and he will not own saying of a foolish thing. But possibly he might say, He was sorry this gentleman should die fighting against the interest of his country.' If he said it not then, he does now say it. Sir Tho. Meres. As to saying, he was sorry that an Englishman should die in that cause,' he is sorry for it; and it was always the thought of his heart, and is still so. Sir Tho. Lee had always a respect for this gentleman; but it is not what respect you show the gentleman, but how this matter will stand upon your Journal to posterity. Every paper, read by order in the house, must be entered; and for sending an answer not direct to a paper of so great reflection, what will appear upon your books but sending a committee of yours? (which, by the way, was a mistake to a man that has offended you.) For your honour, you must send for him; and nothing else moves him to speak in it. Whenever a mistake Sir Ch. Wheeler. arises amongst persons of honour, all quarrels cease. This here arises upon such a thing; and no question but Howard will retract what is grounded upon a mistake. If this be so, an end may be put to this matter. He is persuaded that Howard had not the least intent to reflect on the house; because, when gentlemen fall out, they invent and take up names and words provoking, though not true; there fore would have Howard asked, whether he had the least thought of reflection on the house. Mr. Stockdale would not have Howard forejudged, but let him have a day for notice to appear. Sir Nich. Carew is sensible of the gentleman's the fault is. We believed, when the king was infirmity, the gout; it is his own. Has known him long to be an honourable person; and hopes, as to this matter, he will be innocent: would have a day appointed for his appear ance. Ordered, "That Mr. Howard be sent to, to attend this house on this day seven-night." Sir Nich. Carew. Be the Paper whose it will, it is a scandalous paper; and moves to have it burnt. Sir Tho. Littleton. If the Paper be burnt, we shall not have it here to prove it. Would not have it burnt till the whole thing be over. Mr. Garroway. Until you declare it a breach of privilege, what will you send for Howard for? Therefore moves to have it voted a scandalous paper, and a breach of privilege. Col. Birch. The Paper might be read, before you put the question; but not upon an adjourned debate. The Speaker. The Paper was once read, and needs not be read again.-The Letter was then read as above. Sir Tho Meres. If he speaks not, he may be thought to yield to the report of the letter. He has had papers, long before this, thrown into his house, and has been so far from giving you the trouble, that he has not so much as spoken of them; but, as to this Paper, it was hauded to him in the house, and he showed it to lord Cavendish. Further Debate on the King's Debts, Anticipations of the Revenue, and Supply.] The house went into a grand committee on the king's Speech: sir Cha. Harbord in the chair. Sir Tho. Meres. Your first business is, taking the Anticipations upon the Customs into consideration. Pray let us see what they are. Mr. Sacheverell. If there be such Anticipations, they are either occasioned by the war, or voluntarily. If voluntarily, he believes, nobody will take them off. Birch faid once, 41. per head, per month, might defray the navy charge; and Pepys said, it cost not so much.' Supose the fleet consisted of 100 sail, and 49 ships of attendance, and, according to Pepy's list, 30,000 men, it will not come, for 4 months, to 800,000l. We all know the tax-prices, &c. and we in peace, 1,700,000 or 1,800,000l. And if this cannot defray the charge of 1,200,000l. leaves you to judge. Now, let the managers of the Navy show how they have expended 1,700,000l. and they say something. Mr. Waller. Hears something said, that makes him stand up, for the honour of king and people. There is no other trust in the government than where the law makes it. The king has it; and if we supply, or not supply, we have our trust. Sees there is much stress laid upon that part of the king's Speech relating to Anticipations. The king says, "There has been ill husbandry, besides what fell out in the war.' And the king must take it upon him. But Bracton says, the king cannot err'-' Ill management between the wisdom of the king, and direction of the law, you may know where called back, that the law was come again. Pray let not the Standing Army be brought under that consideration of Anticipations. The king speaks of the government; he owns his care of it; and no government can be more advantageous to him than this. It is a monarchy. The king governs by law. Let us look back to the evils we had, in order to prevent more. There was Loau, and Shipmoney, and extremes begat extremes. The house would then give no money. Let the king rely upon the parliament; we have settled the crown and the government. It is strange that we have sat so many years, and given so much money, and are still called upon for Supply. The lords may give Supply with their own money, but we give the peoples; we are their proxies. The king takes his measures, by the parliament, and he doubt not but that all the commons will supply for the government; but giving at this rate that we have done: we shall be a branch of the revenue.' They will anticipate' us too. But, let the officers say what they will, we will not make these mismanagements the king's error. It is better it should fall upon us than the king. We give public money, and must see that it goes to public use. Tell your money, fix it to public ends, and take order against occasions of this nature for the future. We cannot live at the expence of Spain, that has the Indies; or France, who has so many millions of revenue. Let us look to our government, fleet, and trade. It is the advice that the oldest parliament-man among you can give you; and so, God bless you! Sir Tho. Lee expected to have known what occasion there is for asking money for these Anticipations, or what they would ask. If gentlenen knew, they would have told us before now. He expects it. Sir Rob. Howard. If it be expected that he should give you an account of what belongs to his office, he is ready to do it. As to former Anticipations, he shall wave them, but shall tell you how late Anticipations have been struck upon money growing out of the revenue. If you please to know this, you shall. He believes, in tallies, not satisfied, there is not much exceeding, 800,000l. value; some of this charge, about 80,000l. is growing out. Tallies, not satisfied, 800,000l. value; some other charges to the bankers, as a year's interest; with that prospect, the whole may be a million; by which charge the Excise is wholly taken up; not above 5 or 6,000l. will remain, at the most. He has nothing to tell you, but the king's condition, and will make all this appear indisputably, if you please, in writing; and if he does not now explain himself, he will do it fully. Sir Tho. Meres. Expences, we see, are more and more, and things worse and worse; and no occasion of Supply. There is no end in giving, to take off these Anticipations, and we cannot in conscience do it. Our ancestors gave not their money so away, because they would be bountiful. The people give us no such authority. The defray of all public charges, and the king's living, may be made out sufficiently by the revenue. But the charge of the government is not supportable, at this rate. Lord Cavendish. If this be admitted a supposition, then we must satisfy all debts. The people have trusted us with their money, and Magna Charta is not to be given up, with their money, and liberty, into a bottomless pit. Moves for the question,' Whether an Aid shall be granted for taking off these Anticipations from the king's revenue.' Sir John Duncombe. It is hard to calculate the charge of an expensive war, till the end of it. Howard has told you all the particulars of Anticipations, clearly and faithfully, and with the most, he believes the sum to be between 7 and 800,000l. You know the constitution of the government; when it has war, it comes to you for aid. The king tells you he was engaged in a war, and over-run his measures in it: he is so much in debt, that he knows not whither to go but to you; he knows it is hard to come by, and you have been often asked; but if the king be at ease, you are all at ease. If the crown be in debt, it is a misfortune to the creditors, and many people besides. It has not cost so much money, in any three kings reigns, as this war has been: this is the king's condition, as it appears to him: would not put extremities to work, as it is a dangerous thing. Mr. Sacheverell would have Duncombe explain what he means by putting extremities to work.' Sir John Duncombe. Means, by putting extremities to work,' making the crown, and them that depend upon it, uneasy. Mr. Powle is sorry to hear any thing laid upon the king in this business; he thinks him to have the least part in it. Had he those counsellors and officers constantly to represent to him the state of his Revenue, it would not be thus. But some officers may find private advantages out of public necessities. The war was carried on before without any Anticipations; and, since that, many great sums have been received; as the prize-money, French and Dutch money, and advances on the excise, and hearth-money, and now two years of peace, and then three fourths of this tax to come in. No fleet, and hardly necessary repairs upon the ships in harbour, and the debt yet more, not less. Is not this a sum to astonish every body, in time of peace? What will become of us in a foreign war, if this expence be in peace? fears that the Church-revenue may go in time of war. He believes the Revenue so great already, that, in a short time, these Anticipations may wear off. Supply is, in this case, but to increase ill husbandry.' As to the Navy, believes that due consideration, in time, may be had of it; and, when we are free of these Anticipations, we may go on more chearfally with the other. VOL. IV. Mr. Sec. Coventry. A considerable charge of the Revenue is left out; the foot army, the ten regiments. He, as in a double capacity, as servant to the king, and member of the house, has informed himself, as well as he can, in these things. Redressing of Grievances, and giving Supply, is the business both of court and country. The point before us is, whether we shall first go upon Supply, or enquire into Mismanagements. It is easier for the king to redress a Grievance, than for the people to give a tax. It is necessary now to lay open the state of the kingdom; it will be too late to think on it on Monday, if you pass your vote against taking off the Anticipations to-day. By the last intelligence, the French had 55 sail of ships at sea, and we 7, and so far out of repair, as not in 2 or 3 months to be reparable, The trade and peace of Europe is ours now; and a short time may show that we are upon the precipice of the most inevitable ruin that ever was. It is an unsafe condition we are in, when no longer safe than whilst our neighbour pleases. Suppose Articles concluded at Nimeguen,-that hour peace is made with France there, marshal Montinorency, an old, and considerably experienced officer, may land 30,000 men in England. He may draw them out of Maestricht, and the rest of the garrisons of Flanders, being all full, and may march with what army he pleases, 40,000 men hither, if he pleases. If you cannot oppose liim at sea, our condition is desperate. If men be faulty, let them answer it that manage it, and consider, whether time else will not be lost, for consideration of the Navy. When you have done this, for the present, agree with the king for a certain revenue for the Navy, for the future. Let us not make our faith so much upon what may be showed us, as upon what is already showed us. If it be not meant to maintain ships, when you have them, and whenever, God shall bless you and the king with a right understanding, and leave all you would have, without a navy-Your vote can furnish the king with credit; but, without it, neither your hearts nor your prayers can build ships. Suppose a town on fire, and a man steal the buckets, he deserves to be hanged, but believes the magistrates will not resolve, therefore, never to buy more buckets. Sir Tho. Meres. Be the Anticipations what they will, he shall give his vote to pay none. Has observed, that if once we begin to tumble papers over, we are wearied out, and give money, and leave the question. It is said, do not make councils desperate; therefore give money; but, he says, therefore give no money. At Christmas 1671, such desperate councils followed giving money, that he has no mind to mention them, repeal of no less than 30 laws by the Declaration, a standing Army, the Exchequer stopped up, and a War without advice of parliament, and the Triple League broken, and a League with France made; and, if you give no more money, you will have no more desperate councils; for these were upon 3 C your giving money; therefore now would give none. Mr. Sawyer. When we gave formerly, our judgments governed our wills. As for the desperate counsellors, they were those who were protected by your pardons. Some were laid aside, and some are laid in the dust. Shall we say, desperate counsellors contracted thesc debts? and shall we leave things desperate? now, whether the king, by his good husbandry, can pay off these debts? if the government be not maintained, it must drop, one time or another. Would farther enquire, whether possibly there is a way to take these Anticipations off. Would have these matters first inspected, before the question. Sir Wm. Coventry will apply himself singly to matters of Anticipation. This is the first time any thing has been asked for this matter. The last time we met, it was not big enough for an aid. It must be nursed up to be big enough to be paid; but it is free for us all to speak here. He can never concur, that this debt, contracted by a war, against the opinion of this house, should be preferred before that which widows and orphans call for. We passed once assignments, especially to pay debts; and were there nothing but this in it, can never prefer this of Anticipations, until the house think themselves rich enough. These men that lent upon the customs, &c. had warning enough, by the Bankers precaution, and let them take it, in God's name. This has had the provision of the house already, but it is diverted and gone. Remembers what Clifford said; you shall have a fleet; you shall have no more of debts. Nothing was said then, that the revenue was not able to bear the charge of the government. But it was improper to call for the account; and had it been proper for you, it would have been brought, and they would have been armed for it, over and over. There is something mentioned, as to the peace abroad (God preserve our own!) which would be the greatest misfortune that could befal us. It is happy for us, that they abroad spend their strength upon one another, if it be so great as is said. But this should not make him give up the game: believes that our neighbours are not so stupid as to give France leave to over-run us. But when we compare kingdom with kingdom, and nation with nation, they have no bowels, and are to have no bowels. Friendship has failed, and always will fail: and it is not the interest of Holland to let France be master of England. France, who has long made love to Flanders, comes only to see Dunkirk, and to fortify it. That king sees that the Dutch have a great fleet, and, believes, not to defend the Hague: but then it is the interest of Holland to support Flanders: says France, England is engaged, I will break the Triple League;' and for this they have hazarded their all. This digression is only to show yon, that, if peace was made, we need not give up the game; and the rest of the princes would think it their interest to hinder such an accession as England to the crown of France. But this business of Anticipations seems to have influence on that very thing: if apprehensions that the Confederates are weak, it may induce a peace. What we do here can be no secret; they know our votes, and see we incline more to them than the French; but the Confederates apprehend the king's ministers more inclined to the French. Does England judge amiss of this? The Confederates will so; they hear the king is clearing his revenue, and we fear he will declare against us, having more men, in the armies against us, than for us. Therefore he is against taking off the Anticipations by a Supply. Sir John Duncombe proffers a state of the expences, and the incomes of the revenue. -But they would not be received. Col. Birch. Whenever the house has been upon matters of money, he has been thought to be too forward. It may be, he thinks so too. Could never have believed to have heard that these Anticipations have risen from a war, which this house had no opinion of. Not only without the consent of the house begun at first, but even against the opinion of our ancestors, We are now not only out of the Triple League, but out of all league. In one session, Thanks were given to the king for this League; and, in another, we were to give money to pay for the breaking it. If 90 of a 100, nay, 99, should hear him say, that, to pay these Anticipations, is for the interest of the country (and he is acquainted in three or four counties) they would call him he knows not what. Therefore is against Supply. Mr. Vaughan. When you have passed your Vote, the counsel will prove good counsel, and the war a good war. When so many millions have been given, he lies in amazement how money can be called for: and now that we are forced to pay Subsidies, at our doors, to poor families ruined by the Exchequer, stands in amazement at the motion. Sir Tho. Meres will not say, at the rate of vain expences, how to make the revenue good, notwithstanding the payment of these Anticipations, but believes it may be done. Sir Edw. Dering takes the Anticipations, at least, to be 700,000l. and yet finds we are going into a Vote against taking them off. Is of opinion there were dangerous counsels; he never stood up to defend any of them, nor ever will. Those counsels and counsellors are laid aside. As for danger of Popery, the Protestant Religion was never more protected. Let us shut our hands until we open our eyes. A voluntary engagement of the Revenue may be justifiable; the officers will subject the Revenue to enquiry. Would have the paper that Duncombe offered, received; and adjourn the farther debate to Thursday. Sir Tho. Littleton. We are not told how much of these Anticipations is for service to come, or what is already paid; so believes it not such a bug-bear as it is represented. As for the great stop of the Exchequer, though |