They had given him so much, and, if well | managed, he had been the richest king in the world. 25. E. i. By reason of such impositions they were brought to that poverty, that they could give no more.' And conclude, These have brought poverty on the king,' and then left it to the king, as he would do now. If any gentleman thinks there is no such thing as prophaneness and impiety in the govern ment, and if he thinks not so much money is drawn into France from us, let him give his negative, and he will give his affirmative.

rather have this representation. He slights all harsh expressions, in comparison of doing good. Five or six times bills have been cut to pieces by prorogations. We are tired with bearing them read. In this representation he is contident of the king's grace and favour. These frequent prorogations destroy all we can do by bill. This way of representation will remedy it. He has read that of 1 James, seven, eight, or nine material subjects that concern the State of the Nation-As privilege was mixed with them, excellent lessons for Englishmen to learn! if that method had been taken and followed, it was impossible to have made a rebellion. But it was the breaking parliaments: would not lose the word-calm we are now, and in good temper, but if let alone till some grow angry, it may be much worse. That of 1 James is a good precedent, and would follow it. This parliament has an instance of it; on this very head of religion, 5 years ago, you discoursed the danger of Popery, the cause and remedies: remedies are, where the cause is not, in the king: we are the eyes of the king, and present to him were the canker is, and he remedies it.

The Speaker is of opinion, that what is preferred deserves your consideration. When he considers the bills provided for Religion and Trade, ready to be reported, he cannot but think them worth consideration. To bills for Religion he concurs, but to make Religion by remonstrances is of most dangerous consequence. Could not believe that, after so long sitting in parliament and no public bills returned with le roi s'avisera: thinks there is no necessity of a remonstrance, which is in the nature of appeal to the people. Whoever will tell the people they are not well governed, he fears that people will give them too favourable an audience. The reformed, meek, humble Sir Wm. Coventry wonders at this debate, men were the disturbers of the nation, in the and thinks it out of the way. It is not yet the last age, and he fears are so now. How low, subject matter of debate. Thinks, that, as how humbly, how dutifully they represented! Grimstone is not seconded in his motion, so it was they that acted all the villainies of the the thing will go off-Meres quoted St. Paul former age, and fears they are active for the for it, and so it may pass. He was not so very disturbance of this. If the subject was violat-young, but can remember the calamities of ed of his right, and justice was but an empty name, then there was some countenance for such a thing. Could wish that the prudence of those gentlemen that had indemnity, would pardon the slips and failings of the government, and those occasioned by the necessity of the times. If all this while we had represented the undoing men for their loyalty, if we had so represented this. But since it is our misfortune to have omitted it, let us not now conclude that all was well done before the Act of Indemnity. That being slipt, let us not take this representation up at such a time, when it will be fatal, and tend to our destruction. There is a strict conjunction between the Fanatic and Papist, to dissolve this parliament, and wonders at that motion from a person who has had so little a share in the attendance of the house. But when this parliament shall be dissolved, he fears the shaking both of church and state. Thinks a representation destructive to us and the government, and would have it laid aside.

Sir Tho. Meres looks upon Grimstone's motion, as from an ancient man, with St. Paul's cupio dissolvi,' and believes many abroad gape after it. The question urged of a representation of the state of the kingdom, he thinks to be the sense of the house: bills are preparing, but to some points there cannot be any; but if bills could be in every one, yet would

* Sir Harbottle Grimstone, who had been Speaker. He was at this time 73.

the late times, and is not a little troubled at what fell from the Speaker, That if this parliament be dissolved, it will be the ruin of the nation.' The king's government sure stands on better foundations, the laws and loyalty of his subjects: and the miseries of the late times, for a man's own sake, as well as his loyalty, he would prevent. It is wholly unnatural now to make a representation, because it is not the matter before you. If you were upon Grievances, and if the matters arise where there is no law, then it would be proper for a Bill. But where bills are already, we send messages to quicken them, as those of Popery, and Trade, and another thing not by bill, but we represent by Declaration. We represented to the king what the law was, and desired it should be so no more. If slips be in the government, would not do it merely to represent them, but to remedy them. If administration has not followed the law, we should represent it to the king. But would first consider the matter, before you think of a representation.

Sir Tho. Lee is one of those who would represent to the king the present condition of the kingdom, but was none of those meek and humble reformers;' though he is one of those that would not shut the doors to such a representation. Did never think that all advices from hence were appeals to the people. Knows not how else the ill management of his counsellors shall be represented to him. Though things have been made an ill use of, yet an

ciently they have been good. A fine way to shut up all the gates of the court, and the king never to know when he is ill advised! Would not have every little slip of the government represented, but only when the king cannot know the mismanagements of his government by any other way, but representation: and therefore would have it now.

persons against oaths brought up to the Council-table? Nothing has been wanting, except taking the king's head off. Not the humble but the proud,' reformed the government, to usurp it. And thinks that these are causes of Representation, and can say more hereafter.

Resolved, "That it is the opinion of the committee, that Atheism and Debauchery be one branch of the consideration of this com

Sir John Duncombe fears that the defect of supporting the Church is in ourselves; not inmittee to be redressed." this house, but among themselves. Some of them, he will not say, have too much, but many have nothing at all. Many places are so unprovided, that the parson must work for his living, and, at this rate, the Church will fall of itself. I use is made even of the power of the Church; it does the Church no good. Not for the ends intended by the ecclesiastical courts; speaks not to oppose them, or to lessen the authority of the Church: thinks it worthy your thoughts to open the doors to some men. These are his humble thoughts.

Mr. Garroway thinks that we run out of method. The order of the house is for the committee to consider the State of the Nation ;' desires that, in this case, we may go on clearly and not kindle it up. If all can be remedied by Bill, let it go; what cannot, let us in all humble duty represent to the king. Let us hear what all these motions are, and then you may consider whether provided for already, and recommend it to the committee to have bills in hand.

Sir Rd. Temple. This motion will bring all into confusion. Under the general head of Religion descend to particulars: insist not upon what the law has already provided for, but what it has not. Scandalous livings will make scandalous ministers. Would consider Pluralities, and such Churchmen as are above their callings, and come only to collect their duties. The king of France has wounded the Protestants more by this way than any: and especially moves to consider the scandal of Pluralities.

Sir Philip Mulgrave would not have debauchery and prophaneness' represented in the State of the Nation.

Sir Tho. Meres. If we are ashamed to represent it, let us say so, and try it by a question. Thinks the thing is recommended to the committee, by order, to be the first head of the matter under consideration.

Sir Tho. Clarges. How can we see such a profusion of treasure as we have had, and not tell the king of it? (called to Order) Is Representation such a terrible word not to be mentioned? Knows no way of acquainting the king, but by representation.

Mr. Mallet. The promiscuous use of women'-would have that considered, for they betray the counsels of the nation.

Mr. Vaughan. Some sort of men have had the confidence to represent the State of the Nation to the king, and very wrongly. We complained, in the late times, of decimations, and have not we had the Bank violated, and VOL. IV.

Mr. Howard committed to the Tower.] Oct. 26. Mr. Howard, according to Order, attended at the door of the house. Being called in, he was allowed a chair, without the bar, bacause of his lameness of the gout. Then the Speaker delivered himself thus. "The occasion of your coming hither is a scandalous Paper, which the house has more than a common presumption was dispersed by your order, and subscribed by you. The house would know, whether the paper was signed by you, or dispersed by your order?" The Paper was brought to Mr. Howard by the clerk. Then Mr. Howard thus spoke:

"My respect always has been to this hon. house, and I hope you will excuse me from giving any answer to a thing of this nature," not knowing who charges me with the writing it. As to the resentment of my dead brother, I believe any man who had lost so dear a friend, as well as a brother, might be provoked to some passion. I will not excuse myself: I cannot equally bear such a loss. I am the more concerned, because I knew my brother so much an Englishman, as to go with the sense of the Votes of this house, so far as he understood them. I have met with a Paper very extraordinary, but, because it doth not immediately touch me, shall offer it to your better consideration. I shal! always owe respect to this hon. house, as becomes me, and hope I have not done any thing to incur your displeasure; but if so unhappy as to rest under it, shall humbly submit to any punishment. I find the Paper so extraordinary a one, that I think fit to offer it to the house."

The Speaker. Have you any thing farther to say concerning the Paper?

Mr. Howard. Let any man prove that it is my hand.-He withdrew.

Mr. Stockdale. He has so far owned the the Paper, as to submit to your justice. They are words of high nature, and dangerous : would have him sent to the Tower, but, being a worthy gentleman, not to come upon his knees.

Mr. Williams. Howard has been asked, if concerned in the Paper: he has had as fair proceedings as may be. He was examined first by a committee, and did not answer the thing at all. Has had a long time to consider of an answer. An express confession could not be expected. He has bebaved himself modestly. He, in a manner, owned the provocation that might make a man so express himself. The other day, when the Paper that was posted up was debated, your member,

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and what you do must be speedy. Is sorry the proverb, sure as Exchequer' is gone. Hopes it may come again. If any man employed in building these ships ask for his money, and it is in the exchequer, who will meddle? The king has told you,' He will be a better husband.' It is for us to chalk him out the way.

Mr. Secretary Williamson. Moves to enter into the matter, without unbrage. The thing we are doing is to bring a question, whether we shall do it, or not. Enter not here into particulars, but you may give general instructions to the committee.

Mr. Vaughan. Though not jealous of his wife's honour, yet should you, or any one, come out of her chamber in drawers, he must be jealous. The Exchequer has done no good in this; by experience we have found it.

Sir Tho. Meres. Will any man place his money where he has been so often deceived? The law was prefaced for it, and trusted the Exchequer with it. Some say, 'punish the officers; but we have not hearts to punish, we are too good natured. He foresees they will not be punished by the house, and knows of no where else, where they will be punished.

Mr. Love. If you expect this money to be well employed, you must put it into the city's, or some secure hands, or you are never like to have it rightly employed.

Sir Ch. Harboard. The Exchequer has failed, and there is nothing worse for the government than the failure of it. The morning after the stop of the Exchequer was made, sir Robert Long told him of it. He believed it not. He told Long, was it his case, he would rather lose his life, or office, than suffer it; for an action of the case might be brought against him for the money. Thinks the Chamber of London the best security. You must have public, or private, security. The Chamber has great helps to make good what they do, and you are safe in their hands, and the act will bind them beyond all seals they can make. Sir Wm. Bucknall. It is not what I know, but what the people think. If the people believe not the money will be paid, the people will not trust where they think they shall not be paid. The Chamber of London is good credit.

Sir George Downing. You are the restorers of the government, but this about the Chamber of London, is setting up a new government. What was done to stop the Exchequer, was by order of council, and by the great seal, not orders of the Exchequer. That place that gives accounts most sure and constantly, is the best place. Money was paid into London at the beginning of the rebellion, and dreads every thing that may have its likeness. Would devise from Hell to say, destroy the Exchequer, and take this way,' which is one of the best securities-With it you destroy property. The Exchequer is one of the fundamental pillars of monarchy, the easiest and the cheapest. In 1660, money was paid into the Chamber of London, not yet accounted for,

for disbanding the army, and no man can ever find out how it can be accounted for, nor ever will. Had it been in the Exceequer, it might. Shall it be said, we put it into such hands, nay vote it into such hands? Some are hot enough that the Exchequer is not to be trusted; when that trust is gone, the government is gone. Has any thing been misplaced in the Exchequer ? Mend it. Resolve that the money be appropriated, and refer it to the committee to make it effectual.

Sir Nich. Carew. He is concerned because he made the motion. Would have it known that he is no gainer by the wars. He is the poorer, and some others within these walls the richer, but sees we are now all Cavaliers. [Reflective.]

Sir Tho. Meres. One reflection begets another. The Speaker should have taken Downing down for reflection. If he (the Speaker) will not give us leave to answer reflections we will take it.

Mr. Sec. Coventry will not decide which of the offices, the Exchequer or the Chamber, may be the most easily governed. As to the Chamber, the placing of the money there imports a treasurer. Hopes never to see that day, for the parliament to have one treasurer, and the king another. He knows what will follow. Weigh it well, whether you cannot have as good security from the Exchequer as from the Chamber of London.

Sir Henry Capel has a favourable opinion of the City of London, but sees no need of so great caution in placing this money. It looks like some mistrust, for this one time to trust this one sum in the city's hands. The better London performs this trust, the more danger there will be for future sums to be lodged there. Fears it will come to this, Who will trust the city, and who will trust the king, here, whom we ought to trust?

Mr. Waller. If he had his own natural inclination and desire, he would have taken this occasion to reform the Exchequer, which for ought he sees, breaks loose from all acts of parliament, when the king, lords, and commons made orders assignable, and they are worth nothing, which would make farthings current money.

Mr. Pepys would have been silent, if what he intends to say in this business was not entirely new, or if so proper for any body to say as himself. Of all hands, he knows this money will be most properly in the king's single hand, and none else; but bonds may be put upon the lord treasurer's hands, and other officers, and the king's hand is the safest on this occasion. A retrospection of the ill management you have found in the navy, gives this jealousy now. Is the state of the fleet worse than when the king came in? No. In quality, rate, burthens, and force, men, and guns, it is in better. Let any man offer a contradiction, that it is not the best fleet the kingdom ever knew. There are 83 sail, great and small, more than in all his royal predecessors; and

he has built more ships in 14 years, in burthen | tion. Your question is, for such a Test as is and value, of that fleet, notwithstanding the proposed. The thing is talked of without war-The most beautiful are the king's own doors, and some such Test would be very seagrowth and building. It is said of late they sonable. The last session, there was some have been neglected; but there have been such thing, and was proceeded on, very formore ships built since 1670, than in any 5 years ward. Now is ready to think, that guineas are from any time backward. Another justice, raised in their price: knows nothing, but benext to the king, he must do the lord treasurer. lieves these to be idle things; but would take More ships have been built in this lord treasuoff the report. rers's time, than in any ten of his predecessors. All this said, why will you not trust the king? He has the honour of a, near attendance upon the king, by his office; none of his subjects have so many thoughts, or take more pains in the navy, than this master of ours.

The question being put, "Whether the Money to be raised for the Ships should be lodged in the Chamber of London," it passed in the negative, 171 to 160.

Debate on a new Test against Members receiving Bribes for their Votes.] Oct. 27. Ex ceptions being taken at some words which fell from sir John Hotham, by sir Philip Musgrave, Sir Tho. Clarges said, He would not have the authority of the Chair degraded. words are to be set down and agreed.

The

Mr. Sec. Williamson. He has his liberty to take his exceptions at what was spoken by Hotham, as other gentlemen have theirs, viz. That Members have been drawn from us, and the sums we have given have been employed to that purpose.'

Sir Nich. Carew would have a committee appointed to enquire into these things, and clear your members from aspersions.

Sir John Hotham explained himself, That the revenue is collected by several of the members, and by it they are withdrawn from their service here.'

Sir John Knight would know what members' are drawn away from us.

Mr. Garroway knows no-body reflected upon, (Knight saying we' and 'us') unless he be the number, and has employment.

Mr. Stockdale. It is an excellent motion, to purge ourselves by a Test; and would have a committee to consider of it.

Mr. Williams has not seen these Letters spoken of. Perhaps they were sent by the king's command. They are illegal, and not justifiable: would have these letters produced, and you may then judge, whether they are justifiable or no.

Sir John Coventry. If letters are not justified, they ought to be corrected; and would have the letters produced.

Sir Winston Churchill. There can be no greater infamy than this Test, in casting reflection, suspicion, and self-condemnation : would rather pass a vote, that such reporters without doors, if taken, shall be severely punished.

Sir Wm. Coventry. It is said, there could be no greater reflection upon the house, than this Test. He knows one greater reflection; that is, refusing such a test. The last time we met, enquiry was made into 5000 guineas, but no report of it was made from the committee, It is impossible to silence meu's reports, or to keep secret what is said in this house; and all such reports are equally disadvantageous to us all. The thing being cut off by prorogation, if not revived now, the people will think the majority of the house afraid of that Test. Grimstone's motion was not thought seasonable, but nothing can tend to a Dissolution of this parliament, like the people's ill opinion of us, and then to be no more useful to the government, is an obloquy upon us, and we become abominable in the eyes of the people, though not parliaments in general-An herb, John, in the pottage. But when this Test comes thus far into debate and is rejected, what may be the consequence of it? Therefore is for the Test.

Sir Tho. Lee. Reports of guineas come up and down so generally, that he cannot tell who here heard it reported, that he is one of those who has had them. If he had any, he has taken pains for them; he has attended the service very closely.

Sir John Coventry. Possibly, though the nation be poor, yet there may be talk of guineas: would have us purged of it. Members have had letters sent them from officers of the court, some time before this session, to hasten their coming up: would have that enquired - into. Sir Ch. Harbord. If any have had, they Sir John Hotham would know who has re- have ill deserved them. ceived such letters.

Sir Cha. Wheeler. It is hard for us to recover surmises, and suspicions, without doors: telling the Yeas and Noes, who they are, may be of ill consequence abroad; and whenever you are pleased to appoint such a Test shall be very willing.

Sir Tho. Meres. 'We' and 'us' are very good English words. We are agreed, as to appropriation of this money. Why should we lose the first person plural! But where it is applied to parties, there we may have excep

Lord Cavendish. If we lose the opinion of the people, we can neither serve the king, nor the country: would have one word added to the question: For the committee to enquire both after Letters and Money:' and letters have been received.

Sir John Coventry seconds the Motion; for he believes that both letters and money have been received.

Sir John Hanmer would have the committee

See p. 764.