The House resumed; the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. for having the matter referred to a Select | to run the risk of a sort of conflict with Committee. the House of Commons, and incur an expense of 9,000l. or 10,000l. for the purpose of enabling individuals to prove before their Lordships, that which had already been proved by the evidence brought under the consideration of the House of Commons? HOUSE OF LORDS, MINUTES.] Bills. Read a third time:-Sugar Duties. Lord Wynford said, the real question for their Lordships' decision was, whether Petitions presented. By the Earl of UXBRIDGE, from Dis- the petitioners, who complained of a grievsenting Congregations of Holyhead, for the Better Observance, were to be heard by counsel at their ance of the Sabbath.-By the Marquess of LANSDOWNE and Lords DURHAM and WHARNCLIFFE, from Dissenting Congregations for Relief to the Dissenters. WARWICK BOROUGH BILL.] Lord Wynford presented a Petition from certain electors of the borough of Warwick, against the Bill for preventing bribery and corruption in elections for that borough. They complained that the Bill proceeded on an unfair principle, inasmuch as only twenty-one cases of corruption had been proved, in a constituency of 1,300. They, therefore, prayed their Lordships that the Bill should not be allowed to pass into a law, and that they might be heard at the Bar of the House against it. He conceived that the prayer of the petition was just and reasonable, and ought to be attended to. Lordships' Bar or not? He would put it to every noble Lord in that House, whether a Bill of this kind had ever been passed, without a previous inquiry having been instituted with respect to the alleged facts? He was certain, that the noble Earl could point out no precedent of the kind. The noble Earl had alluded to the possibility of a conflict arising between that House and the House of Commons, if their Lordships prosecuted the inquiry which the petition called for. No man could more anxiously wish than he did to avoid such a conflict; but certainly, he would not consent to do so at the expense of the honour and dignity of that House. Never had a case occurred of a borough disfranchised, or new electors added to its constituency, in which their Lordships had simply acted on the report of the other House of Parliament. It was their duty to see with their own eyes, and to the case of Grampound, where it was found that every Magistrate in the place was corrupt, their Lordships did not promerely on what had occurred in the other House. The Earl of Durham could not agree with the noble and learned Lord in the opinion which he seemed to have formed on this subject. To understand the ques-decide by their own knowledge. Even in tion rightly, it was absolutely necessary, that their Lordships should know what had taken place in the other House with reference to this borough. If the proceed-ceed ings before the other House were examined, it would appear very plainly, that The Marquess of Clanricarde was of the petitioners were not entitled to be opinion, that the Reform Bill afforded to heard at their Lordships' Bar. The same the noble and learned Lord a very suffiparties who now petitioned the House, cient precedent. Many boroughs were had previously been heard by the Com- disfranchised by that Bill, but no inquiry mittee of the other House, having caused took place at their Lordships' Bar on the a petition to be presented for that pur-subject. He thought, with humble deferpose. Witnesses had been heard in sup-ence to the noble and learned Lord, that port of its allegations, and the Committee had reported, that they were guilty of such gross prevarication, that no reliance could be placed on their statements. They then demanded to be heard at the Bar of the other House; but their application was refused, and the Bill was carried almost unanimously. The question was, whether under these circumstances, an examination into the facts of the case should be instituted before their Lordships. Were they they were justified in proceeding with this Bill, without hearing counsel or witnesses at the Bar. It should be borne in mind, that there never was a case in which petitioners came before their Lordships under circumstances similar to the present. In his opinion, it would be nothing more than an immense and unnecessary waste of time and money to hear the petitioners by counsel at the Bar. The Marquess of Salisbury was sur prised to hear the Reform Bill quoted as | House; but, if their Lordships determined a precedent on this occasion. The cases to hear evidence, he, on his part, should were entirely dissimilar. There was no- be ready to make out a case that would thing in the Reform Bill, which proceeded clearly prove the necessity of proceeding on public grounds, that could be adduced with the second reading of the Bill. as a reason for depriving a body of electors of their rights. Nothing, he conceived, could be more unjust, than to disfranchise a borough on account of the errors of a few electors. He would call on their Lordships to give the parties interested a fair opportunity of being heard. He hoped that their Lordships would not depart from the precedent which had obtained in various other cases, when interference with the elective franchise of different boroughs became the subject of their Lordships' proceedings. Lord Wynford wished the noble Earl to state on what day he meant to move the second reading of the Bill, because on that day he should move that the petitioners be heard by counsel at the Bar. Earl Grey said, it was not his intention to enter into the question whether or not satisfactory evidence had been given with respect to the alleged bribery and corruption at the late Warwick election; neither would he offer any opinion as to the means of correcting the evil complained of, whether by extending the franchise, or by adopting any other course. He should also abstain from any inquiry into the precedents which might be drawn from the mode of proceeding that had been adopted in similar cases. The present was not a fitting opportunity for discussing those points. On the question which now immediately occupied their Lordships' attention, he could only say, that it was a matter of very grave and serious considerThe Earl of Durham said, he did not ation to that House to reflect whether, in wish that this question should be made a case which must in a great degree be merely a matter of debate between the decided upon by them in their judicial noble and learned Lord and himself. He capacity, they could proceed to punish was anxious to know what course Ministers individuals, without hearing them in their meant to pursue on this occasion; and defence. This, he repeated, was a matter the more especially, because this was the of very grave consideration. He would first of five or six Bills of a similar de- not at that moment give his opinion on scription, which were coming up from the the question; but, he would state in his other House of Parliament. He might judicial capacity, what that opinion was, here be allowed to observe, that the pre- when the subject came regularly before sent Bill was not brought in for the pur- them. He had thought it right to say so pose of disfranchising a single individual. much on this point; but it was not for that It only added to the existing body of purpose that he had risen. His noble friend electors, a class of persons who were resi- had called on the members of that House to dent in the neighbourhood of the borough. state their opinion, and more particularly In point of fact, the Bill did not disfran- in one part of his speech, he had called chise any one person. The number of on his Majesty's Ministers to state what electors would be extended; but so far as course they meant to take. Now, he disthe constitutional exercise of their right claimed any particular feeling on the subwas concerned, it did not affect the old ject; because he considered this question electors at all. He wished Ministers to as coming judicially, and in no other declare what course of proceeding seemed manner, before their Lordships. He, to them to be most advisable? He wished therefore, felt no more interest in it than also to learn what the opinion of their any other member of that House. It was Lordships was on this subject. Did the not for him, as Minister, to point out any House intend to hear witnesses at the mode of proceeding which he might conBar? Did they intend to incur all this sider more or less expedient. As an indiadditional expense for the purpose of ob-vidual member of that House, he should taining that evidence orally, which at that moment was printed, and lying before them? Would they throw away 9,000l. or 10,000l. to arrive at that information which had been already afforded to them by the House of Commons? He objected to these parties being heard before the be ready to give his opinion at the proper time; but he did not feel that it formed any part of his official duty to make such a communication. The Earl of Durham, would not, after what had fallen from his noble friend, press the matter further. On former oc casions, however, when similar measures were before the House, Ministers had taken a very active part. Thus, in the case of East Retford, it was well known that the noble Duke then at the head of his Majesty's Government, he might almost say, superintended the proceedings, and stated to the House what was the course which, in his opinion, it was most proper to adopt. He had, therefore, thought, that as a matter of form, his Majesty's Government might offer some statement on this occasion. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MINUTES.] Bills. Read a second time:-Consolidated Fund JUDGMENTS IN EXECUTION.] Lord Wynford moved the second reading of Petitions presented. By Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE, and Mr. the English and Irish Judgments Bill. The Marquess of Westmeath thought the Bill vicious in principle, and that it ought not to be allowed to proceed further. He, perhaps, should be told, that the Bill gave no right to creditors which they did not at present possess. That might be the case; but still he maintained that the Bill would give encouragement to parties to obtain by sinister means what they might now obtain by a straightforward course. He believed that the provisions of the Bill were entirely unknown to the practitioners of the law in Dublin; and he put it to their Lordships, whether it would be wise, at a time when the question of the Repeal of the Union was agitated, to irritate these parties by an enactment which had the appearance of an attempt to deprive them unfairly of a portion of their practice, by transferring it to London? He thought the noble and learned Lord would do well to postpone the second reading of this Bill, until the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was able to attend in his place. RICE TREVOR, from two Places,-for the Repeal of the Malt Tax.-By Sir GEORGE GREY, from Tregony and Cuby, for Extending the Jurisdiction of the Borough of Tregony over the Parishes of St. James's and Cuby under the New Municipal Corporation Act.-By Mr. PALMER, from Theale, against any Measures likely to weaken the Efficiency of the Established Church.-By Lord SANDON, from Cheswardine, in favour of the Lord's Day Observance Bill; and from Abbots Bromley, for the Repeal of the Sale of Beer Act.-By Sir GEORGE STAUNTON and Messrs. SHAW LEFEVRE, WILLIAMS, BRISCOE, MILDMAY, DIVETT, BAINES, and an HON. MEMBER, from a Number of Places, and Dissenting Congregations, for Relief to the Dissenters. TEA-DUTIES-ADJOURNED DEBATE.] Mr. Robinson, who resumed the Debate on the Tea-duties, said, the subject contained in the Petitions was one of such great importance to the country as to justify a deviation from the usual course adopted by the House to avoid discussion on petitions. He begged to say, that he dissented from the inferences in both of the petitions. With regard to that from Hull, he would dispose of it without comment, because it was only signed by one person; but the petition from the City of Loudon was of a very different character, and, in every respect, deserving of consideration, not only as regarded the respectability of those who had signed it, but also on account of the reasons which had been urged by the hon. member for London (Mr. Crawford) in support of its prayer. The petitioners prayed that, instead of the scale of duties which had been fixed upon tea by the Bill of last year, there should be one uniform rate of duty upon all sorts of tea. A great deal had been said as to the possibility of collecting the duties; and if that had been the only Lord Wynford said, that the law in question, he should not have deemed it Ireland was the same as the law in Eng-worthy of many observations; but it was land, and consequently English lawyers a question affecting the consumers of tea, were as able as Irish lawyers to judge of who were, in fact, the great mass of the the merits of the Bill. It would inflict community. If the House looked at all The Marquess of Clanricarde was favourably disposed towards the Bill, because he believed, that it would have the effect of inducing persons of property to send their capital to Ireland, but he objected to the ex-post-facto character of the measure. For instance, he believed that existing creditors would, by the Bill before the House, have an advantage over their debtors, which, by the present law, they did not possess. He wished the Bill to be postponed, in order that the opinion of Irish lawyers might be had on it. articles of consumption upon which duties | objection to have a mean taken between were levied, it would be found, that not the present scale of duties upon congou one, excepting, perhaps, sugar, was in and the proposed duty upon bohea, so such general use as tea; they should, that this difficulty might be avoided; but, therefore, look at the subject as one in- he would propose, not that the duty on volving the interest of the consumers. bohea should be raised, but that the duty When his Majesty's Government last year on congou should be lowered, say, for inbrought in the Bill to levy three rates of stance, to 1s. 9d., and that a higher rate duty on tea, they consulted persons of of duty should be charged upon the other eminence in the tea trade as to the best teas. Let the House see what was done by means of carrying such a proposition into the Government, and what was proposed effect, and, therefore, it was stated, rather to be done by the petitioners. The Governprematurely by the right hon. member for ment, seeing that it was not possible to Tamworth (Sir Robert Peel) that the plan collect an ad valorem duty upon tea after was impracticable. He believed, that be- the exclusive sale had been taken out of fore the Government had decided upon the hands of the East-India Company, adopting the present scale of duties, they had recourse to a scale of duty, and fixed had received information from persons upon something like the relative value of connected with the tea trade from Liver- tea. By the Government proposal, bohea pool, Newcastle, Glasgow, and Hull, and paid a duty of nearly 200 per cent, whilst after a very careful inquiry into the sub- the fine teas did not pay more than 75 per ject, which was one of very considerable cent on the price. This was manifestly difficulty, they had come to the conclu- unjust to the lower classes who principally sion, that the plan was practicable; and consumed the low-price teas, adding to as its object was, to afford to the lower the existing inequality and injustice of classes a good beverage at a moderate taxation, and he would never consent to rate of duty, they had proposed the pre- allow any addition to this injustice; on sent scale of duties to the House, and the the contrary, they ought to go back to a House had adopted it. He admitted, that rate of taxation proportionate to the price. it was introduced at a late period of the It would be a manifest act of injustice to Session, and might, therefore, justly be equalize the duty on all tea, and the considered as open to further discussion. adoption of such a course ought not to be Before saying anything on the arguments tolerated by the House unless it could be in favour of an equalized scale of duties, shown, that it was impossible to collect he must remark, that there was some the present proposed duties. He could fatality in all the fiscal regulations of this not consent to have the duty on the finer country, which by some untoward acci- descriptions of tea lowered to the rate of dent led the House to levy a greater pro- duties on tea of an inferior description. portion of taxation upon the lower than In stating this, he begged the House to upon the upper classes. He did not understand, that he did not contend in charge the House with a design to do that; favour of the scale of duties proposed by on the contrary, he thought that a great his Majesty's Government, but in favour deal of the present inequality of taxa- of the principle of a scale of duties such tion arose from accidental circumstances. as that proposed by the Act of ParliaWould any Gentleman deny, that a rated ment, namely, that there should be low scale of duties, charging a higher duty duties on the low-priced teas. If the upon the superior qualities of tea, was duties were equalized on congou and an act of justice? and would it be fair, bohea, all the difficulties would be rethat there should be a single rate of duty moved. He believed, that the importers upon the finest and the coarsest qualities of tea were men beyond the reach of of tea? Unless it could be proved, that temptation, and would never be found the collection of the revenue under the guilty of defrauding the revenue. present Act was impracticable, he should that as it might, it was the duty of the Gonot approve of one rate of duties for all vernment to guard the revenue. He conteas. At the same time, he admitted, that sidered that the present rate of duties there was great difficulty in distinguishing should be tried, and, if applied to the between the fine boheas and the coarse quarter's sale of the East-India House, congous, which was a reason for equalizing it would be seen whether it was practicathe duties upon those teas. He had no ble to collect the duties proposed by his Be Majesty's Government. In his opinion | of arithmetic. By the mode of classificathe effect of equalizing the duty on tea tion which had long prevailed at the India would be to deprive the poor consumer of House, and hitherto never questioned by tea of the benefits of an open trade to the trade, the upset prices of bohea at the China, and would confer advantage only Company's next sale would be 1s. 5d., upon the higher classes, who would get and of congou 1s. 7d.; adding to this the the high-priced teas at a much cheaper rated duties, it would be the interest of rate. He, therefore, trusted that his Ma- the buyer to give the highest price for the jesty's Ministers would well consider the inferior tea, because there would be only subject before they altered the course 2d. per lb. difference in the quality; but which they had intimated their intention there would be 8d. per lb. difference in to adopt. He should have no objection the duty. He believed that great frauds to the appointment of a Committee to would result from the proposed system. ascertain whether the proposed scale of He found, that in the year 1832, the duties was objectionable in its propor- amount of bohea tea sold, paying a duty tions, for, in his opinion, the pre- of 1s. 6d., was 6,500,000 lbs.; but the sent rate of duties on the inferior teas whole amount of teas sold was above ought not to be more than Is. The con- 32,000,000 lbs. Therefore, it would be sumption of this country amounted to seen a very small quantity of the whole 31,000,000 lbs.; that was, about 14 lb. consumption consisted of bohea. Out of to every individual annually. It was, the whole, about 24,000,000 lbs. paid a therefore, a matter of great importance; duty of 2s. 2d., i. e. about three-fourths and he earnestly hoped, that Government of the whole; so that the revenue derived would take pains to constitute a fair scale but little from the teas which paid a duty of duties. of 1s. 6d. In his opinion, however, if the proposed scale were persisted in, almost all teas would soon pay duty as boheas. He thought, too, that it would be very unjust to the East-India Company, as they had, at present, a stock of 70,000,000 lbs. in their hands. If the ad valorem duty was not suffered to exist until that stock was exhausted, it was plain that an alteration would produce a diminution in price, which would occasion a considerable loss upon the whole quantity. Mr. Lyall must assert with his hon. colleague (Mr. Crawford), that there would be some difficulty in relation to the duties on congou and bobea teas. He had inquired particularly at the India House, of those persons under whose management the teas had been placed, and they uniformly concurred in opinion, that the rated duties would lead to fraud and confusion, more especially from the difficulty of discriminating between the lowest quality of teas rated at the high duty, and the best quality of those rated at the low duty-between ordinary congous and best bohea-the former being rated at 2s. 2d. per lb., and the latter at 1s. 6d. It appeared from the sales at the India House, that the tea dealers did not estimate this difference in quality at more than 1d. or 2d. per lb.; that being the difference of price at which they were sold under the present ad valorem duty. One singular effect, in consequence of the application of the proposed rated duties, would take place at the next sales of tea at the India House, when those duties would first come into operation. The public would then witness the extraordinary anomaly in commercial affairs of the better quality of the same article being sold simultaneously at a lower price than the inferior quality. This must be the case, as would be obvious to every tea dealer's clerk who understood the simplest rules Mr. Hawes had taken some pains to inform himself on the proportional qualities of tea sold in the retail and wholesale line; the result was, that he thought the consumption of congou tea exceeded the consumption of the cheap teas. The annual importation of teas was nearly 33,000,000 lbs., of which 21,000,000 lbs. were congou; so that two-thirds of the revenue were yielded by the latter. He found, that in Birmingham and in Manchester one chest of bohea was consumed, while there were nine of congou; in Plymouth and Devonport, the ratio was one chest of bohea to fourteen of congou. That information he had not from one but from many tea-dealers. He would direct the attention of the members for Ireland to the fact, that one chest of bohea was only imported into that kingdom for seven of congou. In America, the scale of duties was varied, while in France it was fixed; |