where this voluntary system of commuta- | and he thought, that the Resolution might tion might be introduced. He therefore be left to the consideration of the House, hoped that his noble friend (Lord Althorp) when the proposed Bill was brought before would introduce clauses into his Bill to effect so very desirable an end. Still, all the objections that could be made, when compared to this great measure, were completely insignificant, and, with skill and some trouble, he did not despair to see them got rid of. Mr. Parrott thought, that the titheowner ought not to be exempted from the payment of rates and taxes, and that a reduction ought to be made on the collection of small tithes as well as on great. With respect to a fixed commutation, he considered the suggestions of the noble Lord better than those of the hon. member for Middlesex. A fixed commutation could only be carried into effect in a country where the state of the cultivation of land was pretty nearly equal. Colonel Wood was decidedly of opinion, that the question could not be satisfactorily settled, without having recourse to parochial valuations. Some parishes had been lately valued in consequence of inclosures. The tithes in upwards of 2,300 parishes had been valued under Inclosure Acts, and in consequence, about one-sixth of the whole parishes of the country had commuted their tithes. Small tithes chiefly existed in parishes; and it was these tithes that were a perpetual source of angry feeling between the clergy and their flocks. He therefore considered that a county valuation was not sufficient to arrange the question. He would not at present enter into the details of the measure. The landlords of England were deeply interested in it, and he was glad that his Majesty's Government had taken up the important subject. The suggestion of the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) was valuable, since a great deal of good might be done by a voluntary composition of tithes. Mr. Blamire wished to know, whether there entered into the noble Lord's plan any provisions to settle the present disputes about tithes, which existed between several parties? Mr. Fryer said, that it was impossible that any one could disagree with the present Resolution. He begged leave to read the Resolution, and would ask, what possible objection there could be made to it. He really could not see any occasion for all the debate which had taken place, 66 it? With respect to voluntary composition, if it had been adopted, tithes would have been long ago of themselves extin. guished. But behind this question stood the lay impropriators. They wanted compulsion, but the clergy wanted none, as was proved by the petition from Stafford, presented that day to the House. The clergy were not, as usually represented, rapacious and seeking for filthy lucre. Though he was a Radical, he was willing to see the Church supported. The clergy were disinterested; it was the lay impropriators who were the men that exacted more than the pound of flesh." The clergy would consent to commutation, and he considered, that the clergy ought not for tithes to distrain upon the tenant, but go to the landlord, and make him bring tithes to the Church-door, or oblige him to sell his land. This was a doctrine that sounded well. He was sorry, however, to say, that he did not agree with the clergy upon some points, and particularly upon that which related to Church-rates. concluded by repeating, that they all ought to agree to the Resolution before the House, and that a Bill, or two Bills, ought to be brought in, founded upon it, which would tend to make the clergy happy and contented. He Mr. Finch did not think, that there existed a general desire for the commutation of tithes, and, therefore, the plan of a voluntary composition could not succeed in large portions of the country where commutation was not desired, and where tithe was levied on an equitable system. With respect to that part of the measure which mentioned a twenty-five years' purchase, he thought it highly objectionable; and there were other details which would fall heavily on several counties. To Sir Thomas Fremantle thought, that the plan would not prove satisfactory in individual parishes, nor generally. make commutation satisfactory in the different parishes the situation of each parish should be considered, and the plan framed so as to suit each separately. That the time granted for voluntary arrangements should be extended, was highly desirable; but if it was to be followed up by compulsion it would fail in its effect. He regretted that part of the plan which would throw odium on the Magistrates by fixing on them the arrangement of the value of tithes at the Quarter Sessions. He should like to know what was to be done in case of the rise of rent in land. Was it necessary that there should be a new valuation? In this respect he saw a great difficulty in ascertaining the amount of tithes. Lord Althorp: The composition would be made according to a fair valuation, and in all cases in which the tithe-owner did not think there was a fair valuation of the land he might demand a new and fair valuation to be made, but at his own expense. Sir Robert Peel would suppose, that a rapid rise took place in the value of land in consequence of the neighbourhood of an extending town or the construction of a railway. He would suppose, that an acre of land now valued at 40s. was raised in value to 401. for building on, or other purposes-would tithes increase in the same proportion? Lord Althorp: Rent was not a fair test of the value of land, and, in such cases as that just mentioned tithe should undergo a new valuation. Sir Henry Willoughby would deny the connection which there was supposed to be between tithe and rent; for it was clear that land might pay tithe which never paid rent. It was well known that in several parts of England the land would only pay the burthens. [Sir Robert Peel and vice versa.] Just so; but this did not shake his doubts as to making rent the basis of any arrangement for the commutation of tithes. He would not agree in the justice of those sweeping anathemas which had been uttered by the hon. member for Wolverhampton (Mr. Fryer) against the lay - impropriators who had bought their present rights in an open market and at a fair price, in the same way that every other species of property had been purchased. He wished the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) would not forget the mode which he (Sir Henry Willoughby) had often recommended-that of commuting tithe for land. Being aware of the necessity of some measure, he would not object to the Resolution before the House as it was now shaped. Mr. Rolfe: The hon. Baronet who had last spoken said, that no plan would prove satisfactory unless it embraced several modes of commutation. He so far agreed with the hon. Baronet, and it was for that very reason he felt disposed to support the noble Lord's measure. As he understood the noble Lord, it would afford every facility that could be suggested to a fair commutation. It also embraced within its scope every possible mode of commutation. It proposed to commute the tithe first of all into an annual sum proportioned to the rent or its ascertained value, either between the parties themselves or by Government, if they could not agree; and if the landholder chose, he might either redeem the tithe or the annual sum into which it was converted. There was necessarily some complication in the statement of the noble Lord, but when the measure was fully canvassed and understood, he had no doubt it would meet the sanction of the House and the general approbation of the country. Mr. Frankland Lewis had but one observation to offer to the House. However feasible it might be in theory, he felt sure that in practice it would not turn out that poor lands paid more tithes than rich. In Wales poor lands paid less in proportion than the richer lands paid. There was a reduction in the amount of tithes on rich lands, and a sure increase on poor lands. He had long wished for some arrangement with respect to tithes, and he sincerely wished success to the measure of the noble Lord; but, at the same time, he could not disguise from his own mind that it would be attended with a variety of difficulties in its working. Mr. Jervis observed, that no notice was taken in the noble Lord's plan of tithes upon wages, upon eggs, pigs, and other things, which pressed very severely upon the poor. He thought that these things ought to be included in any measure on the subject. He had one objection to the mode of taking averages. A parish, or even a field, might be in two different counties, and the tenants might be obliged to pay one sum for one corner of a field so situated, and a different sum for another corner. A fluctuating system of tithes would check the improvement of land, by preventing the investment of money. To the measure itself, however, he gave his cordial assent. The Resolution last moved was agreed to and reported, and leave given to bring in a Bill founded on the same. 122 HOUSE OF LORDS, MINUTES.] Petitions presented. By the Archbishop of YORK, from two Places, and by the Earl of ROSEBERY, from Axminster,- for the Better Observance of the Sabbath. the present means of education derived from voluntary contributions, which were now paid to a very large amount. If, having paid the usual subscription, the collector called on the individual the next day, and said, "I come to collect the PROGRESS OF EDUCATION.] The Lord school-rate," he would, most probably, Chancellor rose to move for a Return con- come to this conclusion-"I shall pay the nected with a very important subject a rate, I think that is enough; but I will subject which was at present occupying, get rid of the voluntary subscription." At to a great extent, the attention of the the same time, he was ready to admit, that country. That Return would throw a voluntary means alone were not altogether very great light on the state of education to be trusted to provide for the purposes at the present moment, which, as con- of general education. He had admitted nected with the morals of the people, must the fact in that place, on a former occabe viewed with a considerable degree of sion, when he was censured for abstaining interest. He had stated to many who from the general establishment of parish had addressed him on the subject, his schools on the Scotch plan. He had on reason for hesitating before he brought in principle refused to adopt that course. a Bill for adopting a general system of But though, in his mind, there was a very education. He had said, when reference great risk in adopting the compulsory syshad been made to Scotland, that whereas tem, still it appeared to him, that there the Bill of Charles 1st (the Parish-School was a much greater risk in doing nothing Bill), although it had worked most bene- at all; and it was a very gross mistake to ficially for the people of Scotland, because suppose, because that particular door, a it was adapted to their peculiar situation, general compulsory system, was not open, yet, did not appear to be equally applica- that therefore no door was open by which ble to the people of this country, their provision might be made to remove the situation being extremely dissimilar. fu- lamentable want of education which predeed, when the subject was examined (and vailed, especially in the great towns, where it had been examined by a Committee of it was more observable than even in the which he was Chairman), it was found country parts. He had, however, ample that nothing could be more different from reason to believe, that in the interval bethe situation of Scotland when that mea- tween 1818 and 1828, when the Test and sure passed into a law, than the situation of Corporation Acts were removed, a great England at the present moment. It was increase in the amount of education, and not, therefore, right to argue, that because that, too, of a most beneficial description, such a measure had effected good in Scot- had taken place. In 1828, when those land, the principle should be now adopted Acts were repealed, it was found necessary with respect to England. The great dif- to consider whether the Dissenters, who, ference was this-that at the time when in consequence of the restrictions imposed the Bill was passed there were no schools on them under the law, were not willing in Scotland. Therefore, the best plan that to avail themselves of many institutions could be devised to remedy that evil was, for education, would do so when the Test the plan which could most speedily be and Corporation Acts had ceased, and carried into effect, and the consequence they had, to a certain degree, arrived at was, that a school, with a small garden, the privileges of Churchmen. The result was established in every parish, which was of those inquiries was, that though the supported by particular funds. But, if objections of the Dissenters were lessened, they proceeded in like manner to plant they had by no means ceased. He had schools in this country, a rate for their thought it expedient, however, to ascertain maintenance would be necessary. The by private inquiries, whether there had people of Scotland, at the time the Bill been an increase or decrease of education was passed, had no experience of rates; during those ten years? He had, with but in this country they had sufficient ex- that view, addressed a circular to the clerperience of rates and of schools also. If gymen of between 500 and 600 parishes, in England the Legislature said, "Let taking them in various parts of the kingthere be a school in every parish," it would dom, and requesting the necessary infortend, he was convinced, to put an end tomation. He had received about 500 an swers, and the result was, that the number | creased to 15,234: being more than three of schools in those parishes, from which to one-indeed, considerably more than he had received replies, had been doubled; treble. It would thus appear, that educaand the number of scholars more than tion in the county of Bedford, taking doubled. In those 500 or 600 parishes Sunday-schools and day-schools, had of England and Wales, there were, at the more than increased two to one. With commencement of the ten years, 1,400 respect to Manchester, that great, and schools, which had increased to 2,800; at wealthy, and enlightened, and ingenious the beginning of the period between 5,000 town, education had there increased in a and 6,000 scholars were educated at those much greater proportion than in the county day-schools, which number had, at the of Bedford. In 1818 it possessed (not expiration of the ten years, increased to including Salford) only fifty day-schools, 12,000. This, he conceived, was a most which were attended by 2,628 scholars. satisfactory Return. Those, however, who By the great exertions however-and they were friendly to parish schools, had thought were as meritorious as they were great-of fit to attack this statement in those pe- the enlightened leading inhabitants, inriodical publications which were devoted stead of fifty day-schools, there were to their opinions. They charged him with 216; which were attended by 10,000 and exaggeration, with having selected the odd children. So that in Manchester the parishes, and with not having stated the increase in the day-schools was more than case fairly. They observed, that there four to one. Now, if other places had were 13,000 parishes in England and increased in anything like the same proWales, and they argued, that while an in- portion, he thought it would be found— crease of education might have taken and he had no doubt it would-that the place in the 500 parishes to which the calculation which he had made with referReturn referred, yet, that the course of ence to 500 parishes was greatly undereducation might have been retarded, or rated. That, he believed, would be the suspended altogether, in other places. result, when the whole Return was laid Now, there was something so exceedingly before their Lordships. The Sundayimprobable in supposing that education schools in Manchester had increased in should go on prosperously in 500 parishes, the same ratio as the similar schools had and that in all the rest it should fall back, done in the county of Bedford. In 1818 that the proposition really did not call for the number of scholars was 8,000; in an answer. It did, however, so happen 1833, no less than 24,400. This result that the Return made to Lord Kerry's was most satisfactory; and, when its imMotion in the House of Commons, entirely portance was considered, did it not show confirmed his view of the subject. That that it might be very imprudent to run the Return afforded a comparative view of the risk of doing away with the system of state of education in two districts in 1818, voluntary contribution by imposing a when the Education Committee was sit- school-rate? A rate to the amount, as ting, and in 1833, when Lord Kerry made had been calculated, of 1,200,000 a-year, his Motion. The county of Bedford and would not effect the object of general the town of Manchester were the districts education. It would not be enough that chosen, and they were chosen because a large sum of money was granted. SomeBedford was an agricultural county, and thing else would be necessary. They Manchester was a great manufacturing might plant schools-they might water the town. The whole county of Bedford had, plant which they had put into the ground in the year 1818, 136 day-schools of all sorts; it had now 244: the number of scholars in 1818 was 3,980; it was now 5,633 being an increase, in the means of education in that county, of as five to three. It had not, indeed, doubled; but it amounted to more than five to three. So that his calculation, of which complaint had been made, was very near the mark. In 1818, the Sunday-schools in the county of Bedford were attended by 4,738 scholars; that number was now in they might be assisted by funds compulsorily obtained-but did it follow that the plant, or the school, would take root? What he meant by taking root, was, that individuals should nourish it, and should feel a strong desire to send their children to be educated at schools thus supported. Was there any certainty that such would be the case? And should the contrary happen, what was the use of a rate?—what was the use of paying a salary to a master, when no one attended the school? It had been asserted, that the people in this by Government. The consequence was, that, in one year, means of education were suddenly called into existence sufficient for the instruction of 30,000 children, which was equal to a population of 500,000 souls. This statement had reference to two of the three ridings of the great county of York. There was in the system of education proffered to the poor in this country, a deficiency which was greatly to be lamented. As it was "not all gold that glittered," so neither was it all education that outwardly looked like it. There was a serious lack of really useful education. Many children might darken the school-house door,-they might talk and buzz there all the day, they might depart to their homes in the evening; and yet, during their attendance, so little might be taught them, that it would not be improper to say, that their time was all but lost. It was, to be sure, better that they should attend, as they were thus kept out of mischief, than be doing wrong elsewhere; and that, perhaps, was the most favourable view that could be adopted. This was an undeniable fact; and the defect was entirely owing to the great want of improvement in the general system of education, and especially in the deficiency of cheap seminaries, where those who meant to become school-masters themselves might be properly instructed. This was a point to which he anxiously hoped and trusted the attention of the Legislature would be speedily called, and that the other House of Parliament, jealous and properly watchful over the public purse as it was, would take care to provide for this great, glaring, and universally acknowledged defect; and, with that object, would add to the 20,000l. already voted, 20,0002. more, towards the establishment of seminaries, or normal schools, for the education of those who would afterwards be called to preside over inferior schools themselves. It was not to be supposed that education could be placed on a very secure or solid foundation, in a country containing a population of 14,000,000 or 15,000,000, when the system depended so much upon casual aid. Probably, however, the Legislature-for the attention of the country had, of late, been strongly directed to this pointwould take up the subject, and place the system of education on a more solid basis. The voluntary principle should, however, always be adhered to,-nothing like compulsion should enter into the system. In |