cause of the presentation of this measure to Parliament.

The Hon. Mr. OLIVER.-Sir, I understand that it is the intention of my honourable friend Mr. Bowen to propose that this measure be referred to a Select Committee. The justification for that course I take to be the absence of information conveyed to the Council in the speech in which the Attorney-General moved the second reading. Possibly, if it had not been indicated to him that it was intended to move for the appointment of a Select Committee, we might, and, probably, should, have been informed of the real reasons which actuated the Government in proposing so momentous a measure to us. Sir, feel disposed to throw the responsibility entirely upon the Government. It is a responsibility of the gravest sort, and I have no doubt that, in coming to the conclusion that it was their duty to present such a measure to us, they did take the utmost care to ascertain the facts, and proved to themselves that the difficulty was one which had no chance of other solution than that which they have proposed. Sir, it seems to me that the inquiry by a Select Committee which is possible under the circumstances must be of a very imperfect character. We cannot make the inquiry an exhaustive one. We cannot ascertain the real position of the bank, and the real necessity which exists for coming in such a way to its assistance. A Select Committee may be appointed, and we have been promised that the evidence of the Colonial Treasurer, and of a high officer of the bank, shall be given to it. But, Sir, it will be impossible, as I have just stated, for anything like an exhaustive inquiry to be made, and the real condition of the institution which it is sought to aid will be as unknown to us after the Committee has made its report as it is now. The only thing which the Committee can, by any possibility, report to the Council is that certain representations have been made to it by those two gentlemen. For my own part, I would quite as soon see the Council throw the entire responsibility on the Ministry. I do not suppose, under the circumstances, the Council will take the responsibility of absolutely rejecting the measure. We have been informed by you, Sir, that this is a money Bill, and therefore incapable of being amended by us. There are two alternatives before us: the one, of accepting it in exactly the form in which it comes to us; the other, of rejecting it absolutely, and facing the disaster which we are told must follow. I do not agree in the opinion expressed by my honourable friend Dr. Pollen, that, under the circumstances which have been reported to us, there is no danger to the institution affected. There is the very utmost danger, the very gravest danger. A bank is an institution of the most sensitive character. It lives only while it possesses the public confidence; and, after what has taken place this evening, it is absolutely impossible that the matter can be allowed to rest. If we do not accept this measure we have to face Hon. Mr. Stevens

the dire disaster of the failure to open the doors of that bank to-morrow morning. That would be a disaster of the very first magnitude. It would affect not only that institution, but nearly every institution, every business firm, and every family in this colony. The disaster would be so great in every direction that I for one cannot accept the responsibility of rejecting this measure. If the Committee which it is proposed to set up can afford information that may settle any doubts existing in the minds of honourable members as to the propriety of taking this very extraordinary step, then, possibly, the Committee will not be without its use. The responsibility which the colony is undertaking is one of a very grave character. It is backing a bill for a very large amount, and whether the colony can by any possibility emerge without a loss is for honourable members to settle in their own minds. The management of the institution in question has been extremely defective in the past; and it may be questionable whether under these new circumstances its manage. ment will be any better in the future. seems to me highly probable that if we adopt this measure the relations which will subsist between the colony and that institution will be found to be of so intimate a character that the natural development will be that the colony will take it over, and it will become the State bank of the colony. Well, I should face that result with equanimity. I should not advocate the establishment of a State bank; but, under certain circumstances, and with certain safeguards, the establishment of a State bank would be no danger to the colony. I reiterate that, for my part, I shall not stand in the way of the adoption of the Bill.

It

The Hon. Dr. GRACE.-Is it not a matter of very grave-of fundamental-importance that this Bill proposes to set aside the charter of the Bank of New Zealand without consulting the shareholders? Is it not a matter of very grave importance that this Bill proposes to coerce the shareholders, without consulting them at all, into the contribution of half a million sterling to the finances of this bank? Are we not under this measure making an entirely new departure, and interfering in the very essence of that confidence which goes to make joint-stock companies possible? Is it not conceivable that the shareholders might prefer that this bank should go into liquidation, rather than that they should be forced by an Act of the Legislature into contributing £500,000 of fresh capital to this concern without being at all consulted on the matter? It seems to me that in that essential we may find a very important principle which may bear very important consequences in any future projects which persons may be inclined to enter into. That is one of the difficulties that I feel in relation to this Bill, and in relation to the Select Committee proposed to be appointed for its consideration. It seems to me the Select Committee is bound to see, considering the position of the shareholders, and the coercion which is going to be brought to bear on them, that this measure is

imperatively necessary for the preservation of the assets which the shareholders already have in this concern, and that nothing else than the most convincing proof of the necessity of placing this additional burden upon the shareholders in the protection of their interests could justify the Legislature in acting as their agent in this matter without their knowledge or consent. Were it for this reason only, I think the Bill should go to a Select Committee.

The Hon. Mr. KERR.-Sir, if, as has been stated by some honourable members, we cannot alter this Bill in the Committee, what is the use of wasting time by going into it? It is said that we must not refer to things in the other House; but I know, from the statement delivered by the Colonial Treasurer, that there is as much information contained in his speech as we can possibly derive from having interviews with any other person. It is all very fine to talk about doing this, and doing that, in the interests of the Bank of New Zealand. I do not stand here to support the bank, or any other bank, but I can see the position plainly. If the bank puts up its shutters to-morrow it will bring calamity and distress upon a large number of the population of New Zealand. It will bring down mercantile firms, widows and orphans who have their moneys in the bank, and it will bring such ruin to a large number of the people of New Zealand as the breakingup of banks has done to the people of Victoria. I consider that the Government, in taking this Bill in hand, have acted in the interests of the country; and, if this Council last year passed a Bill to meet a calamity in Auckland, how much more necessary now to interfere to prevent such a calamity as will follow the closing of the Bank of New Zealand! I consider that, without wasting time, we ought to put the responsibility upon the Government. They are willing to take it, backed up, as the division - list showed to-night, with only eight dissentients. I consider that is sufficient for us, as Councillors, having the responsibility of Government, to go on with the Bill, more especially as we cannot make alterations. Our only alternative would be to throw out the Bill; we cannot amend it. What Councillor present is in a position to bring on such a calamity as it is indicated would take place by throwing out this Bill? I venture to say that few, if any, will have the courage to do so. I therefore trust that the Bill will be considered in Committee at once, without any Select Committee to ask questions and make inquiry. It has been stated, even by those members who desire a Select Committee, that no information could be obtained in such a short time to guide us in any direction. If such a confession has been made, honourable members will see that it will go to the Committee for no purpose whatever.

The Hon. Mr. McLEAN.-Sir, it is with great diffidence I get up to make the remarks I shall make on a Bill of this nature. My position in another institution is well known, and, of course, what I may say may be read in different directions. But, in a similar position, I sat here some time ago while a Bill was passing

VOL. LXXXIII.-10.

through this Council with regard to the Bank of New Zealand. I refer to the Bill which enabled that bank to deal with its globo assets. I did not approve of that Bill, but, considering my position, did not care to speak, so let it go without saying anything about it. Still, I think time has shown that the House and the country were wrong in passing it. Now, Sir, with regard to this present Bill, and its going to a Committee: It is possible that nothing will result from its going to such Committee; still, information may be gathered in the Committee similar to what a banker, before granting an advance, obtains from his customer. There is nothing unreasonable in the Committee inquiring into that. Gentlemen in the position of the Government of the colony must accept responsibility in an emergency such as this, and, although I might have wished the matter dealt with differently, I am not prepared to blame the Government if they have followed the course they have: indeed, instead of blaming them,-even if they commit an error of judgment, they command my sympathy in the trying position in which they are placed. In plain English, they have now a pistol presented at their heads, and are told to stand and deliver. I should have thought that, had the Note Issue Bill now before the House--the same measure which, in New South Wales, saved the three foreign banks now doing business in this colony-been given effect to, so making bank-notes legal tender, it would have been sufficient; but, as the Government think otherwise, I am not prepared to quarrel with them for having that opinion. It is a position in which some one must take the responsibility; and the Government of the country are prepared, and are the proper people, to do so. With regard to the Bill itself, what does it do? It proposes to give to the Bank of New Zealand capital at 4 per cent. Well, how is this to be looked upon with regard to other institutions that have to compete with the Bank of New Zealand, and which are going to compete with it now? The institution I represent does not fear fair competition, and, for the matter of that, neither do I; but this savours as somewhat beyond fair. Still, as the Government assures us that the Bill will prevent the Bank of New Zealand closing its doors to-morrow morning, I willingly assent to the passing of the measure. It appears likely, however, that the apparent advantages which the bank is obtaining through this guarantee will be somewhat counterbalanced by the restrictions which their ordinary business will henceforth meet, through the interference with their ordinary business which this Bill very properly authorises. Now, with regard to the Bank of New Zealand itself, this institution lost a golden opportunity of setting itself firmly on its legs at the time when misunderstandings arose between the inanagement, the shareholders, and Mr. George Buckley not my honourable friend here. Whatever they may have said about that gentleman, it is seen now that he was a far-seeing man, and knew what he was talking about, notwithstanding all the

ridicule that was heaped upon him. I think | the sharholders will, to their sorrow, now admit that they did an injustice to that gentleman. Sir, what would have been the position then had his advice been followed? It would have been possible at that time to have had capital subscribed and a new institution started, taking over all the good business, and objectionable legislation would have been obviated; and there would have been no Assets Company, but, instead, all the properties comprising the globo assets would have long since been passed under the hammer and in profitable settlement, and the colony would have been flourishing. That Assets Company is no other than the Bank of New Zealand; they are the only shareholders in it. Such being the case, why ought it to be conducted as a separate institution? The great objection to calling up reserved capital, that only in case of liquidation is callable, is that under ordinary conditions such cannot be done until the bank goes into liquidation. The shareholders, being still in a position to say "No," can call a meeting, and, I presume, we cannot prevent them. Therefore, if they choose to object to the call they have their remedy, but are not likely to take the extreme course of placing the bank, as an alternative, in liquidation. Serious cases, however, require serious remedies. As to the cry about this creating a national bank: Well, Sir, notwithstanding what we hear about a State bank in New Zealand, and a State note-issue, most people evidently have forgotten that New Zealand tried it during Sir George Grey's Governorship; and I would like honourable members who have talked about | a State bank being a success just to read up history, and what took place then. This brings home to every one in the colony that he has an interest in the good management of our institutions; and this should be seen, because, Sir, the bad management of any institution not only does harm to the institution itself, but also to the country. Sir, I had in my possession information relating to the State inspection of banks, specially as in force in California; and, when the Colonial Treasurer proposed some such measure here, I handed him all my papers and documents in order to give him what help I could. I am perfectly aware of the difficulties there are in this matter, and of the greatest difficulty of all-namely, to find experts capable of properly conducting it: that is the great difficulty, to find impartial capable men. This Bill proposes that the Government should appoint some one as president; but the Government will find a difficulty in finding a proper man to so appoint. In conclusion, I hope I have not said anything that will indicate any feeling on my part in regard to this matter. The Hon. Mr. SHRIMSKI.—I fail to see the object honourable gentlemen have in opposing this measure. No one has spoken here but has agreed, one and all, that the measure must pass, and that we cannot prevent it. According to your ruling, Sir, the measure must either become law or be rejected. I cannot understand what objection there can be; and I hope Hon. Mr. McLean

that the Council will not temporise in the matter by referring it to a Select Committee. What object can a Select Committee have in investigating the matter? They can only ob. tain the information already given by the Colonial Treasurer, and which we have heard from listening to him. If the Select Committee is appointed, it would consist of a few members only to ascertain the facts, and they would keep all these facts to themselves, and the remainder of honourable gentlemen in this Council would be kept in ignorance as to what passed. There is no doubt the time is over for the Government-as no doubt they would like to do to bring up a report containing all the information upon the matter. We cannot get that, and therefore we shall be in the same position as now. I think it is unnecessary to refer the matter to a Select Committee, and, under these circumstances, the sooner we go into Committee on the Bill the better it will be; because, if the Government distinctly tell us that they are desirous of transmitting the Bill to England, I think it will be right and better to agree to it at once; otherwise it may be the cause of grave disaster and trouble to a great number of people. I think it would be better to at once pass the measure into law. The Hon. Mr. PHARAZYN.-I quite agree with the honourable gentleman who has just sat down that the appointment of a Committee would not result in any extra information being obtained over what we already have. I think many honourable members to-night, in another place, were pretty fairly informed as to the real position of the Bank of New Zealand, and they must have been convinced that the position of this institution was a very exceptional one, and also what was required in order to prevent a great catastrophe. Under these circumstances it appears to me that to refer the Bill to a Select Committee will only waste time, and involve a certain amount of risk in the passing of the measure. Under these circumstances there will be a considerable amount of unnecessary responsibility thrown upon the Council, and which really ought to belong to the Government. I certainly shall vote for this measure entirely on the authority of the Government, as I think it is utterly impossible for any one, except a member of the Government, to know the exact position the Bank of New Zealand is in. I think it will be far better that the Council should accept that statement which has been made by the Government; as referring the Bill to a Committee is really a solemn farce.

The Hon. Mr. BOWEN.. Sir, I have no sympathy with such remarks as those just made by the honourable gentleman-that he was prepared to pass the measure on the responsibility of the Government, and declined, himself, to take any responsibility. We cannot shirk our responsibility in that way; and it would be a monstrous thing for this Council to sit here and pretend that we can pass what the Government proposes without responsibility;-we cannot do it, Sir. I propose, after the second reading is disposed of, to move that

a Select Committee be appointed. It is not that I do not feel, as all other members feel, that we are, to a certain extent, driven into a corner in this matter; but we have to face a very serious responsibility. The Government has undertaken a very grave responsibility, and the House of Representatives, of course, has the next most serious responsibility. It is true that this Council cannot amend this Bill, being a money Bill,-that it can only accept or reject it. But there is a responsibility that lies upon us; and it is the best tradition of this Council that no Bill comes out of it without having been thoroughly considered, every clause of it. I think it is a system and principle that we ought never to depart from; and I can conceive, although it would be a very grave reason that would cause such a step-but I can conceive that, in consequence of answers to crucial questions put to certain gentlemen asked to give evidence, it would be the duty of this Council to take the responsibility of rejecting this money Bill. It would be under very exceptional circumstances, and would be a very serious responsibility. But, I say, it is not the way to take a matter of this sort to say, "Oh, the Government has got the responsibility; the House of Representatives has got the responsibility; we have none." Better we should disappear altogether, if that is the case. I will not take up the time of the Council now in discussing any questions connected with the Bill, but when the second reading is disposed of I shall simply move for a Select Committee.

Bill read the second time.

The Hon. Sir P. A. BUCKLEY.-Then, he is not a director.

The Hon. Mr. SHRIMSKI.-I am very glad to hear it.

The Hon. Sir G. S. WHITMORE.-It seems to me, Sir, that we have gained nothing at all by referring this Bill to the Committee, and to that extent my anticipation has been realised. I demurred to the proposal to refer the Bill to the Committee, but, as there was a strong disposition to send it there, I gave way, of course; and all I have to say now is this: that, having referred it to the Committee, and as the report we have received gives no information, some members of the Committee might explain to the Council on what grounds the Committee has come to the conclusion embodied in its report. Otherwise we know now just exactly as much as, and no more than, we did something like two hours ago, when we sent the Bill to the Committee for their report. I do not think it was intended we should hand over our consciences to them; and now we cannot disabuse ourselves, as they seem to think, of our responsibility. I do not think that our responsibility is rendered very much lighter by their coming back now, and saying they think the Bill should pass. I said, when the Bill came before us, that, as it was a money Bill, we should take it as a matter of course, and pass or reject it at once. However, I think it only right, if the Council wishes to be consistent, that we should now expect some member of the Committee to afford us some explanation of the information they were able to procure; otherwise I do not see what use there was in

their putting their colleagues to the trouble of waiting for two or three hours for their con

clusion.

Motion agreed to.

The Hon. Mr. BOWEN subsequently brought up the following report from the Select Committee: "Your Committee, having heard the evidence of the Colonial Treasurer, the Premier, and Mr. Murray, representing the Bank of New Zealand, is of opinion that the Bill should be allowed to pass.'

On the question, That the Council go into Committee on the Bill,

The Hon. Mr. SHRIMSKI said,-I should like to ask the Colonial Secretary a question before we go into Committee. Is it a fact that Mr. Thomas Russell is still a director of the Bank of New Zealand?

The Hon. Sir P. A. BUCKLEY.-There are several Thomas Russells.

The Hon. Mr. SHRIMSKI.-I mean the renowned Thomas Russell, C.M.G., who was connected with the Loan and Mercantile Agency Company.

The Hon. Sir P. A. BUCKLEY.-If you mean the gentleman who lived in AucklandThe Hon. Mr. SHRIMSKI.-I do.

afforded to them. The members of the Council are no more enlightened, after the reading of this report, than they were before. They heard, as I stated before, the Colonial Treasurer give his explanation of the matter in the other House. Well, that was not satisfactory to a large number of the members of this Council who listened to that statement, and appointed a Committee to get evidence and information with respect to it. I do not see that we are any better instructed now than we were two hours previously. We have been kept waiting in the lobby until this report was presented to us, so that we might allow the Bill to pass. Now, those honourable gentlemen who opposed the Council going into Committee, and who bring in this report, simply say to us, "Go on, gentlemen; pass the Bill."

The Hon. Mr. RIGG.-I have listened very attentively to the report, in the hope that a doubt there is in my mind with reference to this matter would be removed by it. That doubt is, whether or not the proposed legislation will meet the emergency.

The Hon. Sir P. A. BUCKLEY.-The evidence is quite clear as to that.