WELLINGTON UNIVERSITY COLLEGE. Dr. NEWMAN asked the Minister of Education, If the Government will, this session, take any effective steps to establish a University College in Wellington? Various deputations had waited on the Minister from time to time with reference to this matter, and he hoped that during this session the honourable gentleman would give a favourable reply to the question, and that the matter would be hung up no longer. It was an exceedingly urgent one.

Mr. REEVES was sorry to say that he could not hold out any hope of any action being

taken this session in the direction indicated. To do what was asked would involve the ex

penditure of a very large sum of money, and the Government had not got it.

CUSTOMS DUTIES ON NECESSARIES. Mr. MCGUIRE asked the Colonial Treasurer, Whether, with a view of relieving the heavy burden of taxation now imposed upon the mass of the people, he will, during the present session, amend the Customs tariff in order to remove the oppressive duties off sugar, tea, coffee, rice, boots, and woollen goods of all kinds, together with all other articles of general use and consumption which are absolutely necessary to the every-day wants of the people generally? He had brought this matter up on several occasions, and on each occasion the Government had promised that the revision of the tariff would be considered; and now, seeing that they had a large surplus at their disposal, he hoped the Prime Minister would say that he was able to give a favourable answer to this important question.

Mr. SEDDON said that a very large question of policy was involved in this matter, and he desired to put to the honourable gentleman the question, whether he would prefer this remission in the Customs duties, or the money to redeem the New Plymouth Harbour bonds. Would he allow these duties to remain and take the money for the bonds? The Government must, however, maintain a sound and strong finance, and they could not interfere with that without due consideration. This matter would have a very important bearing on the finances of the country, and its importance was such, in fact, that the Government deemed it a matter that might be referred, with, he thought, good effect, to the Tariff Committee which was to be set up by the House for inquiry into this question.

Mr. McGUIRE asked if the honourable gentleman was prepared to have that special Committee set up for the purpose.

thought, when it became a question of a school

Mr. REEVES was understood to say that he master being removed from a school against the

will of the Committee, there ought to be some right of appeal. The only thing in the way was that he was afraid that, through want of time, he would be unable to get a Bill through matter. The most he could hope to do would Parliament this session dealing with the be to get the School Attendance Bill passed

this session. If he were still there next session,

he hoped to be able to do something in the direction of providing some kind of tribunal to which in these cases appeal might be made.

LIBRARY CATALOGUE.

Mr. T. MACKENZIE asked the Minister of

Justice, Whether there is a reasonable probability of the General Assembly Catalogue being issued during the present century? He hoped that it was possible this catalogue would be ready before the close of the present century. A start had been made a good while ago with the preparation of this catalogue, which was for the past four or five years, they had been very much required by members, and regularly, assured it would be ready in a few months. Time was wearing on, the books were increasing in number, and members of Parliament

the Minister would be able to assure the House

were daily consulting the records, so that the catalogue was very much needed.

Mr. CADMAN said the Government had not

very much to do with this matter; but he thought he could give the honourable gentleman the assurance that the catalogue would be ready this century. He could positively assure him, at any rate, that if it were not ready this century it would be next century. He had sent the question to the Librarian, and he would read that gentleman's answer:

"SIR,-I am authorised by the Hon. the Chairman of the Joint Library Committee to inform you that the writing of the MS. of the catalogue up to date is finished, and that the preparation for the printer has been begun.

There are great difficulties, however, in the way of carrying on the work during session, and, under the most favourable circumstances, it cannot be ready in much less than eighteen months, unless extra assistance is employed. The printing will then follow, and, if the printer can devote sufficient of his resources to it, may be ready in another eighteen months or less. But he will require to treat it as an urgent matter, not to be put aside at all.-I have, &c., "H. L. JAMES,

"Assistant Librarian. "The Hon. the Minister of Justice."

RAILWAY EMPLOYÉS.

Mr. G. W. RUSSELL asked the Premier, Whether, seeing the boon of a fortnightly payment of wages to railway hands may be withheld owing to £16,000 additional coming into the nominal expenditure for this financial year, they will recommend the Commissioners to pay only once during the month of March, 1895, or meet the difficulty in some other convenient way, so that the railway employés may be paid at shorter intervals than at present? He had been led to put the question upon the Order Paper because a misapprehension had been caused by an answer which the Premier had given to the honourable member for Wellington Suburbs. The question was a very important one, inasmuch as it affected some four or five thousand employés, and it was a great hardship to these men not only to have one week's salary kept back from them, but also that they were only paid once a month. He believed the Minister of Education had moved in this matter in days past; and he (Mr. Russell) thought it would be a graceful thing to the whole of the railway employés if the Government would give them an assurance upon this point.

Mr. SEDDON said, as he had stated, his colleague had moved in the matter. The matter had now again been placed before the Railway Commissioners, and the following was their reply:

"As already stated, the Commissioners are willing to introduce the system of fortnightly payment of wages, if provision is made by the Government for the extra amount which would fall due during the current financial year, about £16,000. If this provision cannot be made, the Commissioners think it would be better not to alter the present method meanwhile, as any variation of the payments, after once commencing, would be unsatisfactory and

inconvenient."

CRIMINAL BENCH.

Mr. HOGG asked the Government, Whether they are prepared to consider the present system of criminal jurisprudence, with a view to an amendment of the law by the substitution of competent Criminal Benches in the Supreme Court for common juries? He was aware that the change suggested in the question was one of a very important character, and should not be entertained without due consideration. But he believed the opinion was gaining ground, in the face of the things that frequently occurred in the Supreme Court, especially in criminal cases, that the time was arriving when jury trials should give way to something of a better character. He need not refer to the eccentricities of common juries, because he believed each criminal session formed a volume of illustrations. What he would suggest was that either the Judge should retire and instruct the jury, or-what seemed a far more satisfactory process-that, in place of the common jury, there should be a properly-constituted Bench, consisting of Stipendiary Magistrates and a number of senior Justices, presided over by a Supreme Court Judge. That would be, to his mind, an educated Bench; and, when he said " educated," he meant that it would be a specially-trained tribunal a tribunal which would be able to weigh evidence-instead of the present untrained tribunal. And, in referring to a common jury as an untrained tribunal, he had no intention to say anything disparaging; because he must say that in these days of education common jurors were generally men of education. But the Bench he proposed would have many manifest advantages. He believed one of the great advantages would be that juries would not be liable to be swayed by the skill or ability of special pleaders, and it would be, he believed, the means of diminishing very materially the waste of time, money, and misapplied legal talent so frequently used for the persecution of the poor and friendless, and for the protection of the wealthy criminal.

Mr. GUINNESS asked whether this was not introducing debatable matter.

Mr. HOGG said he was explaining the matter as briefly as possible, as he considered it of great importance.

Mr. SPEAKER said the importance of a question did not warrant its being discussed as if it were a motion.

Mr. HOGG had only one sentence to add. He thought Courts so constituted would protect the weak, preserve the innocent, and make law a terror to all evil-doers.

Mr. Cadman

sons. There was now a Bill before the other branch of the Legislature proposing to abolish the present jury system; and, when the Bill reached the House, honourable members would have an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon it. The question of the total abolition of juries, however, had not been considered by the Government, and was too important

CATTLE STATISTICS.

Dr. NEWMAN asked the Minister of Agriculture, If the officials who collect and publish the sheep statistics, published yearly in the Appendices to the Journals of this House, will collect and publish like detailed statistics of the cattle? The matter of the absence of any cattle statistics like those of sheep had been brought under his notice by persons who dealt in cattle; and they said that if the Minister would have them collected it would not cost so much as the sheep returns, and breeders and butchers and auctioneers and dealers in all parts of the colony would know where the cattle were, and where they were increasing, and farmers would know as to the places where they should demand higher or lower prices. As they had very large statistics of sheep and corn, and other details, which were of immense value, he hoped the Government would give an affirmative reply to these people who were dealing in cattle.

Mr. J. MCKENZIE was very glad the attention of the honourable gentleman had been called to the matter; but he had no legal authority to do what the question asked.

Dr. NEWMAN said he wanted the honour

able gentleman to get it. The Government were all-powerful in the House.

Mr. J. MCKENZIE was afraid the honour

able gentleman's memory was very short; he, however, had a long one. Two years ago he introduced a Bill having a proviso for the purpose alluded to, and the honourable gentleman would find that Bill in the unpassed Bills of 1892, and he would find that it provided for the very thing he wanted. He found, also, in Hansard that the honourable gentleman voted against it.

Dr. NEWMAN said No; he had voted against the cattle-tax.

Mr. J. MCKENZIE said the honourable gentleman voted against the clause he referred to. He was glad now that the honourable gentleman had changed his mind. He supposed some of his constituents had spoken to him about it, and he would be now prepared to support it. He thought it was right that the Government should have that power.

Dr. NEWMAN.-I never voted against it. Mr. J. McKENZIE said no doubt the honourable gentleman would be found supporting him when he brought in a measure something of the sort again. He was glad he had come to a proper frame of mind.

Subsequently,

Dr. NEWMAN rose to make a personal explanation. The Minister had said that he (Dr. Newman) had voted against the collection of the cattle statistics. He took up Hansard of two years ago, and on page 212 of Volume lxxvii. he found himself recorded as voting against a new clause which did not say anything about statistics of cattle, but which imposed a tax of "twopence for every head of cattle over the number of ten hundred, and of two shillings for every hundred or fractional part of a hun

he voted against, and the Minister was not justified in stating that he voted against the collection of statistics. What he voted against was the imposition of a tax on cattle.

Mr. J. McKENZIE said the same clause contained the following:

"Every owner of horses, cattle, sheep, or swine shall, between the first and fourteenth days of April in every year, deliver or cause to be delivered to the Chief Inspector of Stock or to the Inspector of the subdivision a written return, in the form provided in Schedule B, of the total number of horses, cattle, sheep, and swine of each sex owned by him on the thirty-first day of March preceding, specifying in such return the ear-mark and brand of such owner."

The same clause provided for the return as well as for the tax.

J. BLACK.

Mr. GREEN asked the Government, If they are aware that James Black, of Waikouaiti, has been dismissed from work, with his team, on the Otago Central Railway; and if on inquiry it is found he has been dismissed, and that there is still similar work proceeding to that on which he was and can be employed, will he and his team be re-employed at an early date?

Mr. SEDDON said he would give the departmental reply:

the carting required, and some complaint was "Settlers in the locality are able to do all made that carting which they were able to do was given to contractors from Dunedin and elsewhere. Instructions were therefore issued that the local men were to have the preference, and the services of the carters hailing from Dunedin and elsewhere have therefore been dispensed with. It is scarcely necessary to bring teams from as far as Waikouaiti when the local settlers can supply all that is required."

He need scarcely say it was unnecessary to bring teams all the way from Waikouaiti, when there were struggling settlers in the locality who had not sufficient work for their horses and carts, and who were able and willing to do the work. He thought, if the railway was at the Waikouaiti district, and if the Government brought carters there whilst there were settlers

in the same condition as these settlers were on

the Otago Central, the honourable gentleman would have been the first to complain. The Government had, by the co-operative system, said that preference should be given to people in the locality.

NATIVE LAND (VALIDATION OF

TITLES) ACT.

Mr. STEVENS asked the Minister of Justice, If the Government will, with the least possible delay, take the necessary steps for the purpose of bringing into operation "The Native Land (Validation of Titles) Act, 1893," in the Districts of Wellington and Auckland, by the

appointment of the necessary officers and the establishment of Courts in the said districts? He had been induced to ask the question because it was now a number of monthsnearly twelve months-since the Native Land (Validation of Titles) Court had been set up in one part of the colony. He had omitted to mention in his question two other districts-namely, Wanganui and Hawke's Bay. There were a very large number of transac. tions incomplete as between the Natives and the Europeans, and it was only just that those persons concerned should have the opportunity of availing themselves of the Act, as well as persons residing in one other locality. He was quite aware that the East Coast deserved the greatest consideration. But that was no reason why the whole of the rest of the North Island should have been up to the present left out in the cold so far as concerned the possibility of being able to rectify any mistakes with regard to titles, or to complete many titles which were honourable and equitable and just as between all parties. All parties were willing that the transactions should be completed, and that the titles should be granted for the land; and therefore he did hope-taking into consideration the fact that regulations provided that the fees chargeable should be sufficient, or nearly so, to cover the cost of any transactions which might come before the Court-that the Government would, in view of the fact that it would not cost the colony very much to have these districts placed under the operation of the Court, see their way to bring into operation the Native Land (Validation of Titles) Act in the districts mentioned.

Mr. SEDDON said that, under the Act passed last session, there was authority to establish Courts in different parts of the colony, and to appoint Judges to those Courts. If they were to appoint Judges separately, and to set up the entire machinery of those Courts, it would be very expensive. But he had under consideration the advisability of bringing in an amending Bill that session by which the Native Land Court Judges might be allowed to act as Judges of the Validation Court. That had been the difficulty with regard to Judge Barton. He was advised that, being a Judge of the Validation Court, he could not at the same time be a Judge of the Native Land Court as the law now stood. They thought it wise, therefore, to make an alteration, so that the benefits under the Act should apply to the part of the colony named by the honourable gentleman.

BONUSES TO CIVIL SERVANTS.

On the motion of Mr. BUCHANAN, it was ordered, That there be laid before this House a return showing the amount paid out of the Consolidated or Public Works Fund by way of bonus to any officer in the service of the colony during each of the financial years ending the 31st March, 1892, 1893, and 1894; the return to show date of payment, the name of officer, the amount received by each, the

Mr. Stevens

On the motion of Mr. CARNELL, it was ordered, That there be laid before this House a return showing the amounts that have been expended on experiments on locomotive-engine M90; (2) how long these experiments have been going on, and what are the results that have been obtained; (3) by whose orders the said experiments have been made.

DECEASED PERSONS' ESTATES. On the motion of Mr. McNAB, it was ordered, That there be laid before this House a return showing the amounts of duties of all estates under the Deceased Persons' Estates Duties Acts: such return to show also the total value of the estates, the value of land (including improvements) contained therein, and the amount of duty for which such estates were liable; the return to be limited to estates over the value of £20,000, and to be confined to the three years ending 31st March last.

OTAKI CONSTABLE.

On the motion of Mr. BUCHANAN, it was

ordered, That there be laid before this House a return setting out in detail the several Government appointments held at any time by the constable now stationed at Otaki during the period of his occupancy of that station, and the dates of such appointments.

MARTINI-HENRY RIFLES.

On the motion of Mr. ALLEN, it was ordered, That there be laid before this House a copy of Colonel Fox's report or recommendation concerning the purchase of MartiniHenry rifles.

RAILWAY EMPLOYÉS.

On the motion of Mr. MILLAR, it was ordered, That there be laid before this House &

ALCOHOLIC LIQUORS SALE CONTROL ACT.

Sir R. STOUT.-Sir, I do not intend to take up the time of the House in making a speech on this motion. I can only say, with regard to the first part of it-namely, the retroactive operation of clause 21-there have been different explanations given as to how that clause came to be retroactive; and I think it is very important to the Parliament to know how the Bill-unknown to most members of the House, and, certainly, unknown to people outside-came to be made retroactive. It has led to great litigation, and the result is that the case has had to go to the Privy Council. Two Judges were of one way of thinking, and two Judges were of another way of thinking. The Judges being equally divided-though the judgment of the Court below stood-the case is on appeal to the Privy Council. The second part is this: What amendment, if any, should be made in that section; and then, whether such amendment should be made retrospective, and whether it should affect the existing suit or not. These things could not be introduced in a Bill. The matter ought to go to a Committee, so that it could be fully considered, the Committee having power to call for persons and papers. I think the House will see that I have put on the Committee men without any bias one way or the other, so that it cannot be said to be in any way a party

move.

Motion made, and question proposed, "That a Committee, consisting of Mr. Buddo, Mr. Collins, Mr. W. Hutchison, Mr. Maslin, Mr. McGowan, Mr. McNab, Mr. Pirani, Mr. Saunders, Mr. Ward, and the mover, be appointed to inquire how section 21 of The Alcoholic Liquors Sale Control Act, 1893,' was made retroactive, and what amendment, if any, should be made in that section, and whether such amendment should be made retrospective; with power to call for persons and papers; three to be a quorum, and to report in three weeks."-(Sir R. Stout.)

Mr. SEDDON.-This is a very simple motion, and it is introduced in that bland and nice manner that one would think-using an old phrase-butter would not melt in the honourable gentleman's mouth. But, Sir, well covered up in this motion is as direct an attack on the Government as was ever made by any motion put before a House in a colory having responsible government. Preceding this motion, some few days ago, was a question. I replied to that question some week or ten days ago, and stated, to the best of my recollection, what occurred, and who was responsible. A local journal had the following words: "On receiving the reply of the Premier, the member for Wellington gave notice to set up

Sir R. STOUT.-Where was this? What in? Mr. SEDDON.-In the New Zealand Times -"More sulphur." The honourable member said there had been some inquiry made, that there have been doubts expressed, and that it was very proper the House should know how this clause came into the Alcoholic Liquors Sale Control Bill of last session. Well, the clause came into the Bill in accordance with the rules laid down by the House, and it appeared on the Supplementary Order Paper. Surely the honourable member does not say that the officers of the House have been arrayed against him, or against those who hold strong views upon the temperance question. Here, Sir, are the Journals of the House; and on the Order Paper of the House of Representatives for the 28th August, 1893, No. 29, there are certain amendments which were given notice of by myself at page 57, and after the proviso in clause 16 it is proposed to insert clause 16A, which now is this celebrated clause 21, as slightly altered, I think, in Committee :

"Where a district constituted under this Act or the principal Act has been abolished or altered, and has been constituted or divided into new districts, the poll in force at the time of such alteration or abolition shall continue and remain in force in such new districts until the period arrives for taking the next triennial poll, and shall have the same force and effect as if such poll had been taken in such new districts."

There is the ordinary course taken by placing it on the Supplementary Order Paper, moving it when in Committee, and its being approved by the House, and, as I say, it was slightly amended, and is now the law of the land. Therefore, I say, there is no necessity for the motion. No Committee can go behind the Order Paper, and the fact that notice was given, and that it is now in an Act. There is no necessity for inquiry, as far as the Committee is concerned, with regard to that. What is the honourable member driving at? How was it that this was placed on the Order Paper? I told him that the Government and myself took the responsibility of it; and I say, further, that no inquisition in the shape of a Committee of this House has a right to take the Ministry, a Minister, or a private member of this House and make inquiry into what way or from what motive a clause was drafted, or who assisted or drafted it, whether it was done by Law Officers, or by outside assistance, or by a member of the House. I say it is not the business of a Committee to inquire into such matters. If we make a departure in this instance, where are we going to stop? We have legislation brought forward by private members and Ministers; and if you are to go behind what has been done in every case in the way asked for by this motion-to appoint a Committee to inquire into what has been done, with power to call for persons and papers-I say that it is the most improper thing that has ever been asked for in this