it; he gave his opinion on it when it was firft opened; he fupported it openly in the face of the country, from which he never difguifed it: it was clear, therefore, from this, that the popularity of the prefent Adminiftration did not arife from an opinion now prevailing among the people, that his right honourable friend was an enemy to that tax, and that he would take the first opportunity to repeal it. The fecond point and ground of unpopularity to the late Ministry, ftated by the honourable gentleman, was the India bill, which unquestionably appeared to the public of a very alarming nature indeed; but the honourable gentleman faid the poifon had been extracted from it: the patronage which had been the greatest cause of alarm was to be fo fettled, as to remove the objection to the bill arifing from that point. But how did the Houfe know this? Let the bill be first . brought in, and then printed; the Houfe would then be able to judge how far that dreadful evil was removed; at prefent, it could not be expected that the Houfe would go the length of faying that now there was no objection on the score of patronage; that would indeed be premature, it would be time enough to make fuch a declaration, when the bill, in its new form, fhould have been printed and put into the hands of the members. For his own part, indeed, he would go fo far before hand, as to fay that if the article of patronage fhould be difpofed of in fuch a manner as that it should not endanger the Conftitution, undoubtedly the principal objection that he had to the bill would be removed. As to the third point, the coalition, it certainly was not dead; it was ftill in full vigour; if the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to unite with it, he fhould only make himself a sharer in that unpopularity which attended the coalition; on that head he would afk one queftion, the answer to which would be applicable to his right honourable friend: the question was, would the right honourable gentleman declare, that if he had feen the unpopularity the coalition had fince drawn upon his head, he would nevertheless have formed it? If he anfwered in the affirmative, he would of courfe point out to his right honourable friend, that he ought not to think of coalefcing, The addreffes in Charles the Second's days need not have been mentioned, unless the addreffes of the present days had been to pray the King to reftore those Minifters who had attempted to fhake the foundation of corporate bodies, and rob them of their charters! But the anecdote was certainly inapplicable on the present occafion, when the addreffes contained thanks for the difmiffion of Minifters who

had

had attempted to invade and trample upon chartered rights. With refpect to the motion, he faid before, that he objected ftrongly to the amendment; and therefore, if it should be carried, he would oppofe the whole motion fo amended.

fham.

The Hon. Charles Marfham declared, that notwitstanding The hon. the odious interpretation that had been put upon his con- Char, Marduct, when he voted for poftponing the fupply; he still maintained that he never meant to refuse it ultimately. He wanted only a fhort delay of forty-eight hours, to take breath, after the meffage which had been delivered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Houfe, and from which it appeared that the wishes of the Houfe, contained in the resolutions that were laid before his Majefty, had as yet produced no effect. To have voted the supply unconditionally after fuch a meffage, without explanation, and without taking any notice of it, would, in his opinion, have been a proceeding that would have funk for ever the conféquence of the House of Commons, and he was forry that a refpectable Baronet on the other fide of the way had spoken fo triflingly of the dignity of that Houfe, as to call it a "fatal dignity." When the dignity of the House of Commons fhould once be de ftroyed, there would be an end of its confequence in this country, and confequently there would be an end of its conftitution; for if the reprefentatives of the people were to be confidered as comparatively of lefs weight than the King and Lords in the Legislature, it would no longer be looked up to, and confequently would fall into contempt, and of courfe into disuse.

Wake.

Sir William Wake faid, that he was very far from wifhing Sir Wm, to infult the dignity of the Houfe: he meant only to fay, that it was a miftaken fenfe of dignity that had plunged the House into the fupport of the measure of the American war; and when he reviewed all the difafters that this war brought and entailed upon the country, he could not help faying, that it was a fatal dignity to the kingdom. In this and in no other fenfe did he mean it; for no man could be more defirous to fupport the confequence of the House of Commons, without which this Conftitution could not be maintained. But when he confidered the fmallness of the majorities by which the different refolutions had been carried, he could not help repeating that fuch majorities were not of much weight, when compared to the two other branches of the Legiflature, fupported by the opinion of the people at large.

Sir Horace Mann was extremely obliged to the honourable Sir Horace member, (Mr. Banks) for the very handfome and liberal Mann,

manner

Mr. H.
Dundas.

He

manner in which he did juftice to the character of his ho-
nourable friend (Mr. Powys) who was certainly a man above
duplicicity, and would not fay he meant only to poftpone,
if he intended wholly to refufe the fupply. He hoped the
Houfe would think as favourably of himfelf; for though he
held that the House had not loft that conftitutional weapon
of the Commons, the refufal of fupplies; ftill he wished not
to employ it, except when abfolute neceffity called for it:
the prefent was a crifis when the Houfe was called upon to
make a fpirited fand in defence of those privileges inherent
in them by the Conftitution, and without which they would
be a cypher in this country; but he hoped that what had
already been done for poftponing, would render it unnecef-
fary for the country to go any farther in that way.
hoped that vote, and the refolution then before the Houfe,
which he trufted would be carried, would roufe Minifters
from their lethargy, and convince them that a Ministry
could not ftand against the fenfe of the people. Various
arts had been used to terrify numbers into a fupport of the
prefent Minifters; the fword of diffolution had been fuf-
pended over their heads, like the fword of the Sicilian ty-
rant; but though it had fome effect, ftill he rejoiced that a
body fufficient to constitute a majority, had remained firm
and inflexible and whatever might be his fate, for the con-
duct that he had held in this bufinefs, he would always
efteem it as the principal honour of his life, to have belonged
to a Parliament that had overturned two Adminiftrations; and
which the terrors even of diffolution did not move. Gentle-
men had faid much about the fenfe of the people, which
they ftated was to be collected from addreffes; for it was
merely from the circumftance of addreffes, that the friends
of the prefent Minifters affumed a right to fay they were
popular in the country: as for addreffes, they never had
much weight with him; he knew a bell-man had collected
fignatures, without any meeting or difcuffion. But whether
fairly or otherwife obtained, he muft unlearn all that he was
taught about the Conftitution of this country, if he was to
believe that the fenfe of the people of England was to be
collected any where but in the Houfe of Commons. Ad-
dreffes and fpeeches might fpeak the language of indivi
duals, but the collected voice of the nation, conftitution-
ally fpeaking, was to be learnt only within the walls of that
Houfe.

Mr. H. Dundas wifhed to confider the resolution as an addiefs; and he alfo wifhed that the amendment might be put

and

and carried; he meant afterwards to oppofe the whole refolution thus amended; he therefore thought it would be better to let the amendment pafs without any farther discusfion, that the debates might be afterwards taken on the amended refolution.

The Hon. C. Marfham said, that an honourable member had The Hon. defired to be informed how the Houfe could know that the C. Martham, objections, relative to patronage, would be removed in the new bill of the right honourable gentleman on the floor: now as he had paffed between the two right honourable gentlemen, and heard the fentiments of both, it was in his power to give the Houfe fome information on that head; but he ftood in a delicate fituation; as Chairman of a refpectable meeting (at the St. Alban's Tavern) he had converfed with both gentleinen on the fubject of the India bill; but though the converfations were not ftri&ly confidential, ftill he did not think himself at liberty to ftate the fubftance of them to the House, without leave from the two right honourable gentlemen alluded to.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, he certainly had not The Chan. the leaft objection to the honourable gentleman's giving to cellor of the the House the fubftance of what paffed between him and the Exchequer. right honourable gentleman on the India bill; but at the fame time he thought it would be better to let the motion before the House pafs firft, that gentlemen fhould not, while difcuffing one point, find themfelves entangled in a new debate, the fubject of which (the India bill) was not properly before the House.

Mr. Fox faid, he left the honourable gentleman at full Mr. Fox, liberty, without any restriction whatever, to relate any thing that paffed between them relative to the India bill.

The queftion was now called for on the amendment, which was put, and carried without a divifion.

fham,

The Hon. Charles Marsham then rofe and faid, that having The Hon. waited on the right honourable gentleman on the floor, by Ch. Mardefire of the meeting, of which he was Chairman, to learn his intention with refpect to the new India bill he was about to bring into Parliament; that right honourable gentleman told him, that provided the right honourable gentleman at the head of the Treasury, would confent that the government of India fhould be in this country, and be permanent at least for a given number of years, he would leave it entirely to that right honourable gentleman to fattle the article) of patronage as he pleafed. With this information he

waited

Earl Nugent

waited on the Minifter, who told him that the article of patronage being thus given up, an opening was so far inade to a negociation.

Earl Nugent again recommended conciliation, by which alone an end could be put to the present distractions. Gentlemen were coy of one another at prefent, and therefore ftood upon their punctilios; but if they would at once agree to meet one another, he would lay his life that they would truft each other, and that they would act with confidence. It was not the first time that he had been inftrumental in bringing about an interview, and effecting a conciliation between two great men, who had much greater cause to be at variance than the two right honourable members. The two great men were Mr. Pelham and Lord Granville. His Lordship had appointed to meet at his house, and their meeting was to be kept a profound fecret. One repaired to his houfe quite muffled up, fo that it was impoffible for any one who faw him to know him. He juft introduced them to one another, and left them to themfelves. He took care in the mean time to have a good fupper ready for them, of which they partook; they drank heartily after it; the wine put an end to the reserve on which they had acted; they spoke freely; confidence was established between them; they became fincere friends, and remained fo, and cared not the next day who knew the ftory of their interview. Thus was this coalition (and, by the bye, this fhewed he was a friend to coalitions) effected in a fingle night over a glafs of good wine. He was not much acquainted with the two right honourable gentlemen now fitting oppofite to each other: but if they would give him leave, he would bring them together at his houfe; they fhould have an excellent fupper, the best of wines; they might, if they pleafed, get gloriously drunk; and he would be bound, that over their bottle they would lofe that ftiff referve that wedded them now to their punctilios, and confidence would fpring up where diffidence reigned before. The cafe of the Earl of Chatham and the late King, was a striking proof, that how much foever men might have differed, they might at laft come together, and place as much confidence in each other, as if they had never difagreed. The cafe was this: the King had in a great meafure profcribed all those who paid their refpects at Leicester Houfe, to the late Prince of Wales; Lord Chatham happened to have been employed in the fervice of the Prince; this was of itself enough to ruin him at St. James, and ren

der