school? Yes, I believe they are; but there is some doubt about that.

In point of fact is it so?-It has never been put to the point, because we have never had 100.

What is the average number you have?-From 30 to 35, to 40, and 45.

How do your numbers never happen to be full ?—The school itself is not altogether in bad repute, but certainly the finances of the school have been such as not to have the best instructors, which we could otherwise have had. Our average number is sometimes from 45 to 47; I cannot exactly answer the reasons why it is, neither have I right to answer; it is a matter of private concern between me and the governors. I have not the least doubt of the school being capable of instructing and receiving boys to the number of fifty; I do not suppose it would ever reach beyond fifty, because we are in the vicinity of the two schools, Merchant Taylors' school and St. Paul's school; and we have a school of the same description, St. Olave's grammar school, whose finances enable them to have a much greater number, but who are always generally full; they have two classical masters, and, I believe, four or five writing masters; that will answer so far the reason why we are not full.

You are aware that Merchant Taylors' school is a pay school? It is so? but it would take off a number from the middling ranks of St. Saviour's, because what they pay is trifling, and the advantages connected with the university are very great; and in point of fact, boys have left our school for that.

With respect to St. Olave's school, what is the revenue of that, do you know ?-By report about 15007. a year.

When was it founded?-Very near the same time as ours; I think they have the same charter.

Is it a free school?-I believe it is. I was asked a question which I believe I did not fully answer; that at the school, boys have been admitted of every rank and degree and trade, and among the others, the lowest class have been admitted, and that is one objection why the better class have not sent their children in such numbers; it has been objected to. Now if the Committee refer to this document, they will find that the original foundation was not for the very lowest, but for the poorer mechanic and tradesman, who could not afford to give a liberal education to his boy. At our school, the admission fee at that time, and the other fees, amounted to. 15s. a year, which in these days must have been equal to two pounds, and two pounds at the present time wouldexclude numbers who have hitherto received their education entirely from me. The chief boys who have been educated

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by me, have been, lately, of the lowest class, except a few of my private pupils, who have been admitted by right upon the foundation.

How long has this admission fee been disused?-Never; the admission fee is half-a-crown, and upon examination, five shillings to the head master, and half-a-crown to the submaster; there is likewise so much for brooms and other articles per quarter, which has never been demanded; it was calculated it might amount upon the average to fifteen shillings a year at that time.

What is the actual pay now, a year?—At present just the same, only half-a-crown.

Mr. James Millar again called in, and examined.

What are those papers you have in your hand?-They are the returns of the Schools in Upper Rotherhithe, Christchurch, and Lambeth.

[They were delivered in and read, as follows:]

Instituted.

Mrs. Ayns

From a paper which has been put into my hand containing an account of the want of education in the several parishes of Southwark, it appears that in about four thousand families visited, containing 11,470 children from five to fourteen years of age, there are 6020 without being provided with the means of education.

Have you paid any attention to the sufficiency of schools which at present exist, for affording the means of education to the uneducated children?—I have for many years considered the provision for their education very deficient; and from such returns as I have seen in the present inquiry, I should apprehend the day schools do not provide for much beyond a ninth or tenth part of the want of education, the Sunday schools for one-third or perhaps a little more, and that there would still be a majority unprovided for, in some places nearly two-thirds.

Have you seen any experiments tried, of making the poor subscribe small sums to the education of their children?--I have not seen it myself, but I have had information of the experiment being tried at Weymouth, for instance; and at Kingsland, I believe it is tried."

What sums do they subscribe at those schools ?-One penny per week is what is given at those two schools.

Are you acquainted with the Scotch plan?—Yes. I have seen a great number of schools in Scotland.

What is the plan of those schools?-The master is usually paid a very small salary provided by the parish; his principal remuneration is by receiving in general about eighteen pence a quarter from each of the children, and the poorest person will rather want provisions than neglect that payment for his children.

What do they teach?-English, writing, arithmetic, and in many instances, Latin.

Can you form any estimate of the amount of salary which a schoolmaster in Scotland obtains from those two sources you have described ?-That depends much upon the extent of the parish; in some places it is very small, perhaps not exceeding thirty or thirty-five pounds a year, and from that it may extend, in larger parishes, to seventy or eighty, seldom much more. They have also what is called Sabbath schools; but reading is never necessary to be taught at those schools.

You are aware that by law in every parish in Scotland there must be a school?—Yes.

Do the last answers refer to those parish schoolmasters?Yes.

In what way is a supply of proper schoolmasters procured in Scotland at such low salaries ?-It is not a very uncommon thing for young men who are educating for the church, to

spend a year or two in that way, to help out their expences; perhaps three or four years.

Is it not a very common thing to object to candidates for holy orders as parish schoolmasters?-I am not aware of that, it may be.

Did you never see advertisements in the newspapers, for schoolmasters, in which it is said, None who are educating for the church are to apply?—I believe it is often tried in that way by way of getting permanent masters, which would be of course preferable.

Do you not know that a principal part of the supply of schoolmasters are from young men who are educating themselves at the time they are teaching the school, intending to go out to the West Indies as book-keepers ?—I dare say there

may.

What age are the parish schoolmasters generally?—I cannot speak generally to that, but I have seen them as young as eighteen.

Are the lower orders in Scotland much better educated than they are in England?-Vastly better, there is no comparison; they come to possess that information which I should conceive is impossible to be got by any Sunday school system.

Have you had an opportunity of comparing the education of the lower orders in Scotland, with that of the education of the lower orders in the Northern counties of England ?-I cannot say I have in the North of England; Manchester I have noticed a little.

How is it at Manchester?-Far below the standard of the Scotch education, though a great deal has been done there in Sunday schools, perhaps as much as in any part of the kingdom. There are schools in Manchester for about 11,000 children that I have seen.

But Cumberland and Northumberland you have not had an opportunity of examining ?-No, I have never stopped in them.

What is your opinion of the progress made by children in Sunday schools?--I think there are instances of their reading pretty well; but without they stay a long while, the major part of them will read but indifferently.

What time do you refer to, when you say a long time?— I should think upon an average three years; and I have frequently noticed, that when children have read well, they have had parents who have exercised them at home, or had other means which have forwarded them greatly..

Did you ever make any observation, whether the girls learnt in a shorter time than boys? I have thought the girls