presented to his majesty that he would be pleased to issue forth his Proclamation for the speedy Recalling those his subjects that are now in the service of the French king, and for the preventing any more from going over into that service." Resolved, "That a farther Address be presented to his majesty concerning the duke of Lauderdale:" (the question for adjourning being carried in the negative,) 119 to 99. "C. R. His majesty having received an Address from the house of commons, concerning the Recalling such of his subjects as are soldiers in the French king's service, bath thought fit to return this Answer: That such troops of his subjects as were in the most Christian king's service, before the last treaty made with the States General of the United Provinces, and were not, by that, to be recalled, as they are at present become inconsiderable in their numbers, so his majesty con derogation to his honour and dignity, and prejudice to the peace he now enjoyeth, and hath publicly professed to maintain with all his neighbours. But as to the prohibiting the going over of any more, his maj. will renew his Proclamation, and use all other effectual mears both to forbid and hinder-it." The King's Answer to the Address against the Duke of Lauderdale.] May 7. Mr. Se-ceiveth that they cannot be recalled without cretary Williamson* acquainted the house, That, having received their commands, to know his majesty's pleasure when he would be attended with a further Address concerning the duke of Lauderdale; that his maj. had been acquainted with it: but before that he received the order of the house to know his majesty's pleasure, his majesty had given direction for an Answer to the first Address, which he delivered in writing, and the same was read as follows: "C. R. His maj. has considered of the Address against the duke of Lauderdale, and the Reasons ccompanying it. As to the acts of parliament, mentioned to have been passed in Scotland, his maj. observes, that the first of those acts was in the year 1663; which was long before the duke of Lauderdale was his majesty's commissioner in that kingdom: the latter was in pursuance of the former. As to the words, by the time of Mr. Penistone Whaleye's case, his maj. perceives, that if they had been spoken, they must have been spoken before the last act of General Pardon: and his maj. being sensible how great a satisfaction and security the inviolable preservation of the former act of indemnity and oblivion has been to all his subjects, cannot but apprehend the dangerous consequences of inquiring into any thing that has been pardoned by an act of General Pardon, lest the example of that might give men cause to fear their security under the first Act of Oblivion." The King's Answer to the Address for recalling the English Forces.] May 8. Mr. Secretary Coventry delivered the King's Answer to the Address about recalling the English Forces out of France; which was as follows: * « In a letter from sir Wm. Temple to his father, dated March 27, 1674, notice is taken of a bargain, which had been made between lord Arlington and sir Joseph Williamson, for the Secretary's place: the latter was to give 6000l. for it, and the former was to resign it, as soon as lord St. Albaus should be willing to part with the Chamberlain's Staff, for which lord Arlington had agreed to pay him 10,000l. On the 1st of Sept. this bargain was executed; and on the 14th, the public was informed by the Gazette (No. 420.) that those two removes were made in recompence of the long and faithful services of sir Joseph Williamson, as a clerk of the council; and of lord Arlington, as secretary of state." Ralph. The farther consideration of his majesty's Answer was adjourned to the 10th. Debate on the King's Answer.] May 10. The house procceded to take the above Answer into consideration. Sir Tho. Littleton. Here is an Answer from the king: desires that what is said upon it may not be thought to reflect upon the king, but on the authors of this Answer. He thinks it a very ill one; so highly prejudicial to the people, and destructive to the king! Would clear the matter of fact: the Answer is, 'Such of his subjects in the most Christian king's service. It is no unusual thing to call him the French king' in parliament; but he rests not upon that. Would be informed, whether by the late peace we made with Holland, the king is left free, and at full liberty, to keep these men actually in that king's service. How contrary would it be to his honour, if against no treaty, nor article (fettered) to recal them? Under that Proclamation mentioned, all this mischief is grown. The number of English forces there is now great; 8000 men at least. The duke of Monmouth's regiment, and the Irish, go a great way in the number, besides the Scotch. Great numbers going into France is no breach of the treaty; but into Holland, is a breach. Would have that cleared. It we thank the king for this Message, we do it for sending men over into France. Mr. Sec. Coventry. That treaty does not command the forces to stay; but it is enough to tell you, that by that treaty the king is a obliged to recal those troops. It is no error t call the k. of France the most Christian King as all the world besides call him. He tells you, on his reputation, by all he knows, there are not above 2000 of these forces in all. The king, besides, tells you of his Proclamation, and will use all other effectual means to prevent more going over. Is this such an abuse to the nation, and such a horrid thing? This is an advice to the king, in a thing he is entrusted with. This is not to be murmured at, but thanked for, to give you such an Answer, against his prerogative. Do you believe that the king, in making peace with Holland, did neighbours, but especially not with the great prince on the other side the water; but better now than at another time: while the people are under dissatisfactions, he knows no other way to satisfy them but in this house, and no way here, but in a Grand Committee. write no respectful letter to the king of France? | house: would not quarrel with any of our And just at that hour of the king's mediation of peace, and ambassadors for it, to do such a partial act as to recal these men ! Shall he be considerable neither on one side, nor the other, nor in mediatorship? Suppose the king was resolved to do it; it is not proper now. Cannot he keep a word, or a promise? What, if the king make a promise, and the h. of commons break it, of what value will it be for the future? If you desire a farther explanation of this Answer, you may. But he thinks it a great condescension in the king, as it is already. Mr. Garroway observes many things to be debated, peace and war. The thing is lodged and he will not break into it, nor meddle with it. We are not ready yet for a conclusion of our opinions to this Answer. If we open the matter of fact, see how we contribute to France's greatness. The king's honour, crown, and dignity are concerned in it. If the Low Countries and Flanders should be conquered, knows not what our condition will be. We know of no obligation to the numbers of men in France, and so can say nothing to the recal of them. Moves to have the king's Answer debated in a Grand Committee. Sir Tho. Littleton seconds the motion, to come the better to the right understanding of the matter. Coventry has yielded the matter, that no treaty does impose the staying of these forces on the king. If any thing falls from him, out of zeal to his country, desires pardon; but if we let those things go, we give the greatest blow both to our country and the confederates imaginable. Mr. Sec. Coventry. What he said was, the Treaty of Holland obliged it not.' Sir Tho. Clarges conceives, that where the king is dishonoured, and there is a contempt of his Proclamation, and a violation of his honour, we are concerned. The Message tells you, that the king has sent out his Proclamation to forbid all;' but, by letters from the ports, we are informed that recruits go frequently over into France, 3 James, ch. 31. No officer can go into any foreign service without taking the oaths of allegiance.' At Dover that has not been done; they go over as if they were to be instructed in the Popish religion, to our destruction; and by that law mentioned, bonds are to be entered into, and Gaths (and all returned into the Exchequer) to practise nothing against that oath.' This going over is to the dishonour of the king, and danger of religion, Col. Birch sees many that speak, crave grains of allowance: he has most need of any, and hopes he shall not be denied them: is for a Grand Committee: if this thing be well done hardly any thing else can be ill done. He agrees that war and peace are in the king's hand; but he thinks that in this business of the peace with Holland, the king asked the advice of this house. You are embarked in it, and the miscarriage will be the fault of this Mr. Sec. Coventry. A peace there was advised in this house, but not this peace: the terms the king made himself, and he would not have Birch tell you what the articles are, or should be. Sir Ch. Wheeler observes, that great things are brought into this house, and still prove but matter of enquiry. For the term of the French king' spoken of, when we have wars we say so of him, and what have we got by it? In all foreign affairs they come up to the title of the British king' with us. Of these men in the French service, he looks upon the Scotch guards as a thing particular to their nation, who have been in France sixty years at least in that capacity; the rest are the duke of Monmouth's regiment, and sir George Hamilton's; col. Churchill's regiment being reformed into the duke of Monmouth's (sometimes we are forced to be quit of the Irish, and now we must recal them.) He cannot inform himself, any way, of above 1000 horse : when you have made all these means to prevent their going over, idle fellows will go. [He was taken down to Order.] The Speaker. It is disorderly to take a man down, before you know what he will say, Sir Ch. Wheeler goes on. You can stop them no more than you can the exportation of wool: here came over German and French gentlemen of the horse, to buy horses; and there goes over, at least, a man to three horses; and so, many men under that pretence steal over. If there be not above 8000, how is the honour of the nation exposed! He fears the honour of the nation as much as another, but would have a reason for his fears. Lord Cavendish. It is said there are not above 2000 English and Irish. It is strange there should be no more. They won two battles for the French, the last summer, by their own confession, and are a number to do the like this summer: would go into a grand committee. Sir Edw. Jennings. The king tells you, he will use all effectual means for preventing the going over of more men into France.' If that be so good an Answer, return thanks for that part of the Answer; and, when that is done, go into a grand committee to consider the rest. Sir Tho. Meres. What part of the king's Answer will require a farther Address to the king, will be the subject-matter of the grand committee's debate. It may be, Thanks to his maj. will be a part; we know not: sees it contended, that the forces in France, before the Treaty, are not obliged to be recalled;' but the objection must be thoroughly understood at the committee. No man can say that there is any thing in our Address contrary to any treaty. Mr. Wuller. He has formerly seen how dear our meddling with peace and war has proved to us. We have no light nor measure at an in such things. All that comes to the king is from his own and foreign ambassadors. These enquiries have been very fatal and costly to us. The house, in the last Treaty with Holland, gave advice; and the king asked it. Now it falls out properly, to see how that advice has been infringed; followed, or not fol lowed. It is the nation's glory to have the king the mediator of peace, and Christian commisseration requires it. The thing is of great weight, and would go into a grand committee. ption is, not spoken of. Whether it be a treaty, or no; for what time, or on what condition, if declared, we may avoid that rock of a war. All we have told us is but a pennyworth of news in the Gazette every week. Sometimes we know things that they do not tell us. Let them set us up some marks whereby we shall not touch upon the king's honour, and they will be good guides to us for our debate. The king of France is ready to overrun us all, if his conquests go on. Sir Rd. Temple. If the Proclamation recalls not these forces, he would go as far in a Bill in it as may be. Proposes a farther Address to the king, to recal all persons gone over since the Holland peace.' Mr. Sec. Williamson. How difficult is it to Sir John Ernly. Since you have had a meddle, or come to any resolutions, in things question firsted, and seconded, for Thanks where the facts are not known? He is not to for that part of the king's Speech, of his effec-answer for the king France's violences and tual care to prevent the going over of more oppressions. It is said he took Treves for Le forces,' you ought to put it. convenience only, and on intercession of letMr. Sec. Williamson. Here are two ques-ters, to break the neutrality of that place, ie tious; one, the main question, about Thanks, &c. and the other, for going into a Grand Committee. If the matter be opened, doubts not but the whole Answer will require your Thanks. Supposes the thing may be done in the house, as well as in the Grand Committee. He is but young in it, and leaves that question as you please. Mr. Poule. To the first part of your Address you have a denial; to the second you have no Answer at all. There are several forces gone over since the Address: but men being sent away, and the thing depending, would therefore have it go to a grand cominittee. Mr. Sec. Coventry. He has heard the king say, Have not the ports a standing order, to stop persons? Must he send them one every week?' Mr. Hale. There are few in number, indeed, of these forces left, because they are most killed he knows he saw upon the road 80 in a company: They land at Boulogne, and will not land at Calais, because in view of the packet-boats: the duke of Monmouth's regiment is recruited by these men, and Turenne's army had been lost without them; and it is said in France, they set the crown upon the king of France's head.' He has lately had opportunity to know it in France. Mr. Vaughan. Your vote cannot make that to be, which naturally is not, viz. Thanks for the Answer, and that it is satisfactory.' Possibly there may be a league in the case, and the king's honour concerned; and when we come freely to debate it, in a Grand Coinmittee, we lay aside all these considerations. The House then resolved into a Grand Committee; sir Charles Harbord in the Chair. Mr. Garroway. This is one of the seriousest businesses that ever was in the house: would do nothing in it, to involve the nation in a war; but it staggers him to hear the king's obligation named; but yet what that obliga shall took that town himself into his possessi reject us. Sir Tho. Littleton. The second sort of mea are gone into France, since the Holland peace. the first are wholly omitted in the Answer. doubts that the last part of the king's Auswe? is intricate. It is a general prohibition, but that is no part of our Address. The king teis you, He will take any farther way to prevest their going over. If taken in a general sense, he is not satisfied that, it is an Answer to our Address. As to that of the old men there, he says that there was no Article to the contrary, * Sir Joseph Williamson himself was one of the Plenipotentiaries. but that the king might recal them: easy to know a secret article-No man to go into France or Holland-But the going into France is so public, the private article is now as public. How know we what promises have passed from the king about these forces? he knows of none, nor is willing to believe any; being only spoken of by way of supposition: Williamson said, We, not knowing the intimacy of things, might be deceived.' But it is as certain, that the French king has taken Treves for his convenience, as that he has made this war for his glory. And farther, he tells you, That the business of the Palatinate happened through the neglect of the interposition of the king of England.' Is sorry to hear the authority of the king of England was employed to hinder the elector: he might not have been so overrun-It is said, this recalling, &c. would prejudice our mediation.' Is one of those who understands not how the mediation can stand to the good of England. He apprehends that the king, without the assistance of the parliament, could not carry a war on against Holland: and is afraid that the authority and figure the king has in his neutrality would be made use of for the French advantage; there fore desires the king may now be put out of that capacity of inediation, to make the king of France a terror to all Christendom. To continue France in all these acquisitions, and secured in all, or the greatest part. The confederates wasted, and the French army maintained in the bowels of the confederates country, scarce reparable in this age. If the confederacy be dissolved before the French be reduced back to France again, the most ruinous thing in the world! when once the confederates dissolve, and France in this high posture, fears that the confederacy is never to be renewed to the end of the world. He speaks like an ordinary man; you have his good will. It is a plain thing; he sees no good we can have when the confederates are broken, and we strive to put the French king into that formidable condition, that we should be afraid to anger him now, what will it be to anger him then, when the confederates are broken? he must have Dover, because he is angry with us, and over-run us at last, as he has done others. [Exceptions being taken by Mr. Sec. Coventry at what fell from him, thus explains himself.] The king not to be in such a mediation as to leave the king of France a terror to all the world. Mr. Garroway. If we were off from France, all the world would put us upon being me diators. Col. Birch. Littleton's words were,' such a mediation as may make the king of France a terror to all Christendom.' Sir Tho. Lee. The words are to be written down, that to eternity the world may know what the opinion of this house was. interpret the words so, the gentleman must explain himself; and he has done it, and sees no reason why the words should be set down. Sir Wm. Coventry begs leave to pass by what has passed, as a parenthesis, and proceed to the business. It is good news to him that the balance of France was so near being made by these forces. When France first made an inroad into Holland, how long was it before there was any thing to look her in the face! France sees, by that, the danger of letting the confederates come together. When disunited and peace, no such thing as balance. That no predominant power be a terror to the rest, is our true balance between France and Spain, He wishes that the dust was a little shaken from the balance in the matter. He has not heard that mediations have been of such a value as to leave out the aid of a kingdom for them. He does not think that this withdrawing the forces would make us improper for being mediator, for some times mediations may help to obstruct peace as well as make peace. Many others are admitted for mediators as well as we. He has heard of the state of Venice, and the pope, and respects are seldom refused when offered as mediation: fears that the prevalency of France will spoil our markets more than any thing. When she has got peace, we are like to have a hard market. We can buy our wines but of one chapman then, but if France be brought low, you have choice of chapmen for any wares she can carry to market. Will offer something to the matter of recalling these forces. Does not conceive it possible to have these forces back, or prevent others going over, unless it be before Holland have peace with France. It was intended by the king and his ministers, that no more should go over; yet they do. As long as regiments and officers are there, it is his interest to have them recruited, to keep the troops up to such a degree. The root will draw nourishment as long as it grows in your garden, and to destroy it you must pluck it up. When the thing is rightly considered, hopes the king will have other thoughts. There appears no treaty between France and Holland, and is confident that there is none. We have no treaty yet finished with Holland to establish commerce, and believes we would not send subjects to assist the king of France, to make him greater, until that be settled. It is a probability, that after France has made peace, and ever shall be in a condition to reckon with us, they will do it, for making peace without them, as well as for withdrawing men away now. It is not ordinary for princes to be bound up thus; the honour of a prince, at home, is the maintenance of his subjects; and, abroad, not mistaking his interest. Did the king intimate he was to send no more forces? if the French king has used means to draw men over, he has cancelled all obligations to the contrary; therefore he hopes, that there is nothing in the whole matter but what Col. Titus. It belongs to the gentleman to explain himself. As if the king should be so inconsiderable as not to be mediator. If any VOL. IV. 2 Z Mr. Vaughan finds now the whole stress of the business to be the king's honour.' If all national contracts are broken, no nation will trust us.' It is so amongst common men: but after you find leagues have been destructive, it has been the prudence of princes, (who may err like other men) to recall such leagues. men to be knocked on the head; and when wounded, they have been knocked on the head to make room for the French. If you allow them to be there, you may be put to pay them before loug: therefore would recal them. we may have a gracious Answer to; and is pure matter of advice, and the king tells you for the Address for recall of the forces. positively, he cannot do it with his honour, Mr. Sec. Coventry. All the long discour-where will it end if the king should deny you? ses here have been, Whether we shall go to And you cannot force the matter upon him, war with France, or no.' As to the com- but leave him at his liberty: he appeals to parison of the plant in a garden,' the best precedents in this kind. answer to experience is experience. There is not one English pair of colours in Holland, and yet more men gone over into Holland, by thrice the number, than into France. These are things that cannot be avoided. A man of honour breaks not his word with any man, but much less where he is most obliged. If there should be any such agreement of no more ac-When a peace shall be made, you expose these ceptance of our troops, the eagles will go where the carcass is,' where money is. More of our men have come over to Holland from the French army than we have sent into France. Should the world take notice of any unanimity betwixt you and the king, let all men lay their hands upon their hearts, and declare, whether the king can recal these forces with his honour. Col. Birch. England is of that spirit, rather to desire to know the worst of a danger, than stay till to-morrow for it. You are told of secret engagements that may prostrate the honour of the king.' In this case here is an end of your debate. Either we must debate thus, or consider how the interest of the nation is. The king cannot miscarry when he goes into this bottom. There are 90 in a 100 against France, all England over. You may make war with France with the money he overbalances you in your trade, which you get, like bees, by industry remembers that if you had not only made peace with the Dutch, but told the king of France why you did it, you had not now debated this matter here. If you will not adjourn the debate, put the question. Mr. Sec. Coventry. Inspect records, and you will find whenever a king has told you, he could not concede a thing with his ho nour,' that you never have farther pressed him to it. Sir Edw. Dering would, in this great affair, take the deliberation of one whole night to consider of it, and would now adjourn the debate. Disorder on the Division.] The question being put, " Whether a farther Address should be made to the king for Recall of his subjec's now in the service of the French king," the grand committee thereupon divided; and the tellers, viz. sir Trevor Williams, and sir John Hanmer, appointed by the chairman, str Charles Harbord, differing in their account the Yeas and Noes, some called, Tell again, others, Report;' on which great disorder Mr. Sawyer. Whenever you demand right began; gentlemen rising from their places and you stick to it. As on the imprisonment of mingling in the pit; hot and provoking dis one of your members, there is either cause courses and gestures passed on both sides, shown for it, or else you deliver him. You especially betwixt lord Cavendish and sir Joha have made Address upon Address for him, Hanmer. Some said, that lord Cavendish's and if not released you adjourn, as in lord sword was half drawn out, but prevented by Arundel's case, in the lords house.* Where Mr. Russel, who kept close to him. Others said an Address for a thing is matter of advice that lord Cavendish spit in sir John Hanmer's only, and not of right, you have always ac-face, but that was only eagerness of specch quiesced in the king's Answer. If it be a demand of right, he is for adhering; but it being See vol. ii. p. 125. This was in 1626, when the earl of Arundel was committed to the Tower for being too severe in language on lord Spencer, concerning the marriage of his eldest son, Henry, lord Maltravers, to the lady Eliz. Stuart, eldest daughter to the duke of Lenox; which, it was alleged, was done contrary to the king's consent and knowledge, he having designed her for lord Lorn. When the parliament met, the lords, being discontented, presented several petitions to the king, to preserve the privilege of parliament, and, no cause of his commitment being expressed, at length refused to sit, until he was restored to thein; which was ordered accordingly, in about three months. See Collins's Peerage, vol. i. p. 129. and so some might accidentally fly from hi But it was visible to all that sir James Smith, setting his arms on his side, did, in a rude man ner, make through the crowd, and jostled several and came up to the table, where yet more o discourses passed between him and lord Caren dish, Mr. Stockdale, Mr. Sacheverell, and seve ral others; Mr. Stockdale and some others, set ting their feet upon the mace, which lay be the table, in the usual place at grand committees This disorder continued near half an hour, the standers by, on the upper benches, expecting very fatal consequences, especially when th young gallants, as Mr. Thynne, Mr. Newport and several others, leaped over the seats t join lord Cavendish. But the Speaker, very opportunely and prudently, rising from his seat near the bar, in a resolute and slow pace, mad his three respects through the crowd, and took |