wickedly driven from the church of their choice, and from those associations and connections which have long been so dear to them, I am ready to go and preach to them the Gospel of the grace of God. I have done it, and by the blessing of the Almighty, I will do it again. (Applause.) But on the other hand, in cases where separate services can be dispensed with, I think it very desirable they should be. (Hear.) One of the delegates, a little while ago, made some reference to the trustees; the position in which they are placed, and the effect which that position has had upon their minds and conduct. I am sorry that in all cases the trustees did not, in the first instance, come out like men. (Hear, hear.) I can say, from my own knowledge and experience of things, that if they had stood by the people, the people would have stood by them. (Hear.) In the circuit in which I have lived and laboured for above forty years, as soon as ever the Conference turned out Messrs. Everett, Dunn, and Griffith, we had a meeting. I attended it, and I told our people, "You may do what you like, but as long as you continue to pay you will be oppressed; and whatever you do, unless you stop the supplies, you will never rectify the evils.' (Hear.) And, Sir, they have lived to see that I was prophetically right. (Hear, hear.) In consequence of our trustees going out in a body, with one exception, what has been the consequence? You know we are Reformers (hear); the preachers know it too. ("Hear," and a laugh.) The Conference knows it too. They know that I said they had no right to legislate for the church: they know I went to London to the delegate meeting, and yet I am here. (Laughter.) Mr. COZENS HARDY: Did you stop the supplies? (Hear.)

Rev. JAMES EVERETT: Mr. Mallinson could tell a good tale about that, I'll be bound.

on.

Mr. MALLINSON: I have a great objection to answer "friendly inquiries.". (A laugh.) I do not mind sometimes, but it is not always convenient. (Hear.) Well, I was going to say, we came out three years ago on these principles, and we have had a struggle to get But the cause of Methodism we consider to be our cause-we have paid our money to support it-we have laboured to strengthen and increase it, and what right has any man to come into our circuit, and stop one member here and another there, and take it into his head to kick me about like a football? (Hear.) This cause is ours, we love it, and we would like to love the preachers too, and would have no objection to support them, if they would let us do it on a proper understanding; but they won't do it. You are aware, Sir, that we have been engaged in law matters in our circuit for the past three or four months. We have the best counsel in the kingdom engaged in examining Methodistic affairs, not simply on our account, because it will be as useful for Sheffield as for Huddersfield; and as you will be equally benefited, I have no doubt you will all feel equally interested in raising the necessary funds. ("Hear," and a laugh.) We have done everything in our circuit which was consistent for Christian men to do; we have carried Reform, and now everything is done but doing-(hear and laughter)-well, what do you mean by that? it may be asked. In the first place, be it known, we have resolved that we will not go into debt nor make up any deficiencies-whatever the people give the preachers shall have, be it 100l., or be it 501., or be it only 10. ; but we will not make up any sum. (Hear, hear.) The system is as they have made it, and they shall just have the full benefit of what they have done. (Cheers.) In the next place, we thought it inconsistent to supply money to the connexional funds, and we gave notice to the superintendent that we did not intend to allow another collection to be made in our chapel. (Laughter and cheers.) Of course, he was very sorry about that, but he acted the part of a gentleman; for when he found he could do no other, he gave in with great dignity. (Renewed laughter.) The last move is-we have got information from London as to what our privileges are-not only what the minutes say but what they mean. (Hear, hear.) And now, if a superintendent is in the chair, and refuses to put a motion which is proper to be brought forward, we will put it ourselves; if he refuses to nominate an officer, or having nominated one, two, or three, who are objected to, refuses to nominate any more, we will nominate them ourselves, and take the election and appointment into our own hands. (Cheers.) If the preachers turn members out of society by simply leaving them without a ticket, we intend to give directions to the leaders' meeting to issue tickets to the members so dropped-(hear, hear)—and if the preachers neglect their duty, we intend to invest the quarterly meeting with power to do it for them. (Hear, hear.) We believe this to be right. We have consulted the New Testament, and are prepared to stand or fall by the directions contained in that holy book; and for myself, I can say, that sooner than be again coerced into measures, such as we have been coerced into for the last fifty years, I could stand and be shot. If ever I was sincere in seeking the salvation of my soul, I am sincere in endeavouring to rectify the evils in Wesleyan Methodism. We have no peace, and we never shall have any, we have no prosperity, and we never shall have any,-unless something can be done to bring about such changes that the official men of the Connexion can unite and harmonise and labour with the preachers; for the preachers, by themselves, have not the power to carry on the work of God-they never did, and they never will. (Hear, hear.) We know that they claim power to expel and make our society in two years a hundred thousand deficient; but if ever we are again to have prosperity, we must look to the energetic services and labours of what are called the laymen of the Connexion. We cannot go back. We are in circumstances in which we are under the necessity of going on; and, therefore, I say, "No secession," and no separate services unless where absolutely necessary. (Cheers.)

The Rev. T. ROWLAND having offered prayer, the sitting closed.

EVENING SITTING.

The delegates reassembled at six o'clock, and the proceedings commenced by singing, "Give me to feel thy easy yoke, &c."

After which

Mr. ELLISON, of Liverpool, engaged in prayer.

Mr. LAWES, of Bristol, having been called on to preside, briefly stated the subjects to be brought under discussion.

Mr. CARTER, of Sowerby Bridge, resumed the conversation on the question of the general course of action for the ensuing year. He recommended the establishment of loan Tract Societies, and the more free use of the public press by obtaining the insertion of Reform intelligence and declarations of principles either as articles of news or advertisements.

Mr. CHILD then briefly moved the following resolution: "That this meeting re-affirms the resolution passed at the last delegate meeting, that the delegates recommend the consistent adherence on the part of the Wesleyan Reformers to their previous decision of 'no secession,' 'no surrender,' and 'no supplies.' (Cheers.)

Mr. POTTER, of Chelsea, seconded the motion.

Mr. ELLIDGE, of Bradford, said, he wished the meeting distinctly to understand the position in which they stood. The Reform principle of "no secession," was simply this, -no separate and distinct organization. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible that they could agitate a circuit without producing some results, and the time would come in which the establishment of separate services would be almost imperative, He trusted that the leaders of this movement would bear in mind that their great hope of success must be, not in attempting to convince the Conference, for they had positively determined not to discuss the matters at issue with Reformers, but to create such a tide of public and national opinion and conviction in their favour, as would carry all before it. (Hear, hear.) They must endeavour to convince the people of the fact, that to allow "Methodism as it is to remain, was dangerous to the community. Let them, at the same time, endeavour to elevate the character of their local agency, to promote the efficiency of their local institutions, and on no account to lose sight of or neglect the religious element of their movement.

Mr. BELL, of Barnsley, suggested, by way of addenda to the resolution, the insertion of the following words: And this meeting recommends that separate preaching services, in chapel hours, be not established in any case without urgent necessity." He had put these words in italics because, although was decided from the beginning that there should be no secession, and the views of the delegates were not at all changed in that respect, there might be circumstances in which such services must be established. At the same time, he wished to warn the brethren against the danger of forsaking principles which had been agreed upon after due deliberation, in order to meet circumstances which had not been before contemplated. If the people were not thoroughly trained in Reform principles,— if the standard fixed for them were too high, how did the meeting know, that, in the course of a year or two, they might grow weary of agitation, and return to the old body, if for the sake of peace only. As an individual, he had resolved to remain out twenty or thirty years, if necessary, and though but one, he knew by experience, that such a determination would continue to exert an influence upon the preachers. If their principles were right, they ought to stand by them, even if in attending Conference chapels they subjected themselves to be preached at.

Mr. NICHOLS Seconded the addition of the words proposed by Mr. Bell. He contended, that in withdrawing from the Conference chapels altogether they were seceding, and he expressed his conviction that wherever it was possible, persons should continue to attend them as heretofore, while they strove to put an end to the tyranny and despotism which had crept into the legislation of the body.

Mr. BOOTMAN, of Lynn, gave an interesting account of the rise and progress of separate religious services in his circuit. He showed that there was no other course open to the Reformers, and proved, by the subsequent increase in their numbers and advancement in spirituality, that the establishment of such services had been eminently owned and blessed of God.

Mr. HILDRETH KAY said: It is was perfectly clear that the meeting was unanimous on most of the points in the resolution. They were unanimous in reference to the principles of "no secession, no surrender, and no supplies;" but there were two points about which they were not resolved. There seemed to be a difference of opinion; first, as to the propriety or otherwise of establishing separate services; and, secondly, as to whether the establishing of such services constituted secession, (Hear, hear.) No doubt, if it could be shown, that in establishing separate services they were virtually seceding, they must either abandon those services, or at once rescind their former resolution. He contended, however, that such was not the case, Mr. Bell, of Barnsley, in order to ascertain what was the real meaning of the word secession, had been searching for its derivation, and had come to the conclusion, that inasmuch as to secede, literally meant to go away; that, therefore, the Reformers in going away from the Conference chapels, had seceded from Methodism. Now, he thought brother Bell ought to have gone a little deeper for the real meaning. To go away was a term which involved a radical idea at the bottom. It contained this fundamental principle

-the abandonment of our claims. So long, therefore, as Reformers maintained their claims -so long as they insisted that they had rights in connexion with the old body, so long would they continue to be Wesleyan Methodists. (Hear, hear.) As soon as ever they went away from those claims-as soon as they gave up contending for those rights, they would cease to be entitled to call themselves Methodists. If it were true that the establishing of separate religious services did not lay them open to the charge of having seceded, then the propriety or otherwise of establishing them would depend upon the particular circumstances of each locality or circuit. This had been clearly shown in the instances already given. At Louth the non-establishment of them had doubtless been a wise forbearance, while at Lynn they had been followed with the happiest results. (Hear, hear.) He would suggest, therefore, in order to bring the matter to a close, that, instead of the addenda of Mr. Bell, there should be appended to the original resolution the words, "and that the propriety, or otherwise, of establishing separate services shall be determined by the circumstances of each particular case. (Cheers.)

Mr. BELL said, the proposition which Mr. Kay had just submitted, did not at all meet his views, because there would always be an inclination on the part of the persons who would have to decide the question, in favour of separate services, as likely to promote their, own individual ease and comfort; and there would thus be a danger of the Reform cause suffering by their settling down in quietness.

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Mr. CHILD said, he should be very happy to add the words proposed by Mr. Kay to the resolution he had moved.

994

Mr TAYLOR, of York, thought the suggestion of Mr. Kay a very good one. There would always be a peculiarity of circumstances attaching to each circuit. The brethren at Louth and Huddersfield were quite right to continue in the Conference chapels, seeing that they could rule the preachers; but it was quite different in a place like Swaffham, and also in York. (Hear, hear.) At York what else could they have done? There were numerous expulsions, and the people were so disgusted with the proceedings of the preachers, that they left the chapels by hundreds, and many of them were scattered before the Reformers could establish separate services. He was quite satisfied, that if they had commenced only a week or a fortnight earlier, they might have had a great many more members saved to them. As it was, they still mustered large congregations,-indeed, the largest in the city -numbering from 1,800 to 2,000, and had a field of usefulness far greater than any other church. (Hear.) He was quite surprised at some of the friends talking about going to the Conference prayer-meetings, and trying to be useful. Why, really if they did so, and could succeed in converting their neighbours, they would only be bringing forth children unto bondage. (Hear, hear.) He thought they had no right to endeavour to place people in circumstances which they would not like themselves. (Hear.)

Mr. HALSTEAD, of Wakefield, believed that those who had continued to attend Conference services had done, and could do, no good. In Wakefield, the Reformers turned out en masse, and cleared the Conference of 800 members at once. They had now a congregation of 1,500, and were still increasing. (Cheers.) One of the Conference chapels was reduced to such a state, that it did not raise enough money to pay for the cleaning of it. He for one was fully persuaded that if the separate service system had been generally adopted, the Reformers would have conquered by this time, or, at all events, been much nearer to that end. (Hear.) As to the remark which had been made about previous Reformers failing in their attempts, he would remark that he believed the Conference was now labouring under the impression that, as they had put down all opposition before; they would succeed again, if they only held out long enough. He urged the Reformers to be of one heart and mind, to stand fast in the liberty which they had achieved, and never again to come into bondage, to one nor to 500 men. (Cheers.) In Wakefield they had stood their ground, and, in consequence, were in a much better position than the Conference party was. Speaking of their relative positions, he would refer to the kind of fraud which was sometimes put upon the Connexion, as regarded the number of members in society. At the time Mr. M'Donald was in Wakefield, it was said that there were 2,200 members. When the expulsions of himself and Mr. Harrison took place, for the sin of going up to London as delegates, the people were divided, and both parties, the Conference and Reformers, only numbered 1,600, although not 50 members were lost to the societies. (Hear, hear.) to the rich men in the old body maintaining Methodism as it is," he believed they could no more do it than they could fly. The weight upon their shoulders already was too great for them to bear, and they could neither keep the preachers, nor the chapels. (Hear, hear.)

As

Mr. MEIKLE, of Holmfirth, had intended to say exactly what Mr. Kay had said. He hoped too much would not be conceded to the opponents of separate services, because he considered they had been great blessings to the people. He did not know of a single instance in which separate services had not been made useful to the people, by improving them as Reformers and as Christians. (Hear, hear.) The case of Louth, to which reference had been made, was not paralleled by any other circuit in the kingdom; and if the bouth people had been humble people, with poor purses, the effect there would have been very different. The consequences of continuing in the old chapels had been that, in many cases, the preachers by their twaddle and insinuating ways, managed to persuade the people that they loved them much better than their leaders could do; and when they had regained the affections of their hearers, they turned round and expelled their leaders. He alluded

specially to the case of Liverpool, where, two years ago, the feeling in favour of reform was much more powerful than at present. If it could be proved, as he believed it could, that separate services had been thus so eminently useful, let the rule be carried out. In his own case, he was summarily expelled when at Runcorn. He hesitated about the propriety of joining in the establishment of separate services; and his esteemed friend, Mr. Martin, knowing the resolution to which the members of society had come, to stand by one another, wrote to him, and begged, as he loved Methodism, not to think of separate services. But when brother Meldrum was cut off, energetic steps were taken in the matter, and the result had been most gratifying. (Hear, hear.) He hoped, therefore, the resolution would not be altered; unless it could be shown that, in some considerable number of cases, separate services had had a bad effect. (Hear.)

Mr. MARTIN, of Manchester, rose to a question of order. It seemed to him, he said, that the discussion had taken an unfortunate turn. The question on the paper of business was, "secession or no secession." The Committee of Privileges, in proposing that question to the meeting, intended, he supposed, to ask the delegates whether they were in favour of continuing as they had done for the last three years, or whether they were in favour of creating another establishment. (Hear, hear.) It seemed to him, that the consideration of separate services belonged to another and subsequent question, viz: as to what agency shall be employed during the ensuing year." He submitted that they could not discuss both together. The one question was,-"Will you secede or not?" the other, "Will you employ separate services more extensively than you have done, as part of your system of attack upon the Conference?" (Hear, hear.)

Mr. BROWN, of Grimsby, said: It appeared to him that separate services did not necessarily involve secession. Mr. Wesley never seceded from the Church of England to his dying day, and yet Mr. Wesley had separate services. (Hear, hear.) The Reformers were prepared to do the same.

Mr. CONYERS, of Lincoln, and Mr. WILSON, of Heckmondwike, spoke in favour of separate services.

Mr. HALIFAX, of Manchester, said: He thought the Conference were the seceders. The Reformers holding fast to the principles of Mr. Wesley, could not be said to have seceded because they had ceased to attend the Conference chapels. (Hear.)

Mr. COULTAS, of York, agreed with Mr. Martin that the discussion was somewhat irregular; but he must say that those gentlemen who held Mr. Martin's views were the cause of it. They had been told that by holding separate services they had seceded, and he was not surprised that the friends who thought differently were anxious to vindicate themselves. (Hear.) He (Mr. Coultas) had held from the beginning that so far from this being the case, the only way to prevent secession was by establishing separate services, and the whole progress of the movement had confirmed his belief in the truth of that position. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BROWN, of Manchester, took the same view of the subject as Mr. Halifax, and believed that by holding separate services they were doing their utmost to conserve Methodism as it was laid down in Mr. Wesley's sermons, and his Notes on the New Testament. Maintaining Mr. Wesley's doctrines and discipline, they could not be said to have seceded. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. STARK, of Glasgow, thought the discussion had been sufficiently prolonged.

Mr. WHITELY, of Leeds, was in favour of no secession, and no new section. He hoped the resolution now before them would not, if carried, have the effect of neutralising the vote of a former delegate meeting on the subject of separate services, which, he thought, ought to be maintained in its full integrity.

Mr. MARTIN said: With reference to my own views on the subject of separate services, I think that I have been much misrepresented. Two years ago no one could be more earnestly opposed to their adoption than I was. My sentiments have undergone considerable change since then. (Hear.) I have seen cases where it would have been madness not to have established separate services. I think Mr. Cozens Hardy's case was one in which the Conference not only sought to rob him of his money, but of the chapels on which it had been advanced, and where the preachers had succeeded in driving away the whole of the congregation, except the chapel-keeper, his wife, and Mr. Hardy's book-keeper. The same remark applies to Wakefield, where there was a danger that a large number of the people would be scattered into the world but for the existence of places for separate worship. (Hear, hear.) But then I say that they have been established to a most ruinous extent as regards the interest of the Reform Movement. In great numbers of circuits which I have visited, and where I have attended Reform meetings, I have found the cause languishing in consequence of this. A few individuals have rushed impatiently into such a scheme; have opened a room with a few members; have involved themselves in expenses, and the toil of finding preachers to supply their pulpits, and the general interests of the Movement, have suffered for it. I am quite prepared to admit that it is a humane view to take of our question; but then I maintain, after all, that our mission, as Reformers, is not to build up churches, but to destroy the despotism of the Conference ;-(hear) and I will not be persuaded by any man, or number of men, to aid in establishing separate services in Altringham, by which I may have my attention called off from the great object we have to keep in view, the shattering of that system of Conference tyranny against which we all protest. I am quite sure, that, after all that can be said on their behalf, we are paying a tremendous price for these separate services; and I maintain, moreover, that for

all efficient purposes, Manchester, where they have not obtained, is in a more healthy condition in regard to Reform, than any other town in the United Kingdom. ("No, no.") I say yes, yes; and I know something of Manchester. Will you have the goodness to point out to me any circuit in the Connexion where the preachers are so prostrate and powerless as in the Manchester leaders' meetings? (A Delegate: "Louth.") No, I think not so much so.

The CHAIRMAN: Why, you have separate Services.

Mr. MARTIN: I am reminded by the Chairman that we have separate services. I know it, and they are our reproach. The largest room we have in Manchester and Salford, with a population of 500,000 inhabitants, will hold, at a cram, about 110. (This appears, from a subsequent statement, to be below the mark. It will hold about 200.) Now, I know very well it is just possible we might have had a much larger congregation and chapel if I had not thrown cold water upon the project in the first place-(hear, hear)-and I am not quite sure that I did right ("hear," and a laugh)—but I am sure of this, that, if I had not opposed it, Manchester could not have done what it has done for the Reform movement. So far as I am personally concerned, I am ready to do anything in my power to accomplish the great object we have in view; and even, should I be left alone in the struggle, I will never cease to agitate while the Wesleyan Conference continues in its present form. (Cheers.)

Mr. ACRES, of Manchester, said: When the Reformers in their circuit determined upon establishing separate services they got the best place they could. Had they commenced earlier they might have saved somewhere about a hundred more members, and three or four more leaders. (Hear.) No later than the previous night they had determined to have a chapel, costing 5007. The number of members in society was increasing, and if they had no other satisfaction in connection with separate services, they had this, that they had been enabled to gather many from the world. He referred, in conclusion, to several interesting instances of success in connection with the establishment of separate services.

Mr. MAWSON, of Leeds, thought the influence of Mr. Martin's speech likely to be prejudicial. As far as the movement was concerned, he would say, if a town like Manchester cannot maintain separate services, it ought to be supplied with funds and men to enable it to do so. He hoped that Manchester, the great Free trade emporium, whose influence was so powerfully felt in the Legislature of the land, would yet furnish a powerful opposition to the monopoly of the Conference, and take its proper place in bringing on the advent of Reform. (Hear, hear.)

The addition proposed by Mr. Bell was then put and negatived, and Mr. Kay having withdrawn his supplementary sentence, the original motion was adopted.

A motion for adjournment having been carried,

The Doxology was sung, and the Rev. JAMES EVERETT closed the proceedings with prayer.

SATURDAY, Aug 14.—(Second Day.)

The delegates re-assembled at nine o'clock this morning. The chair was taken by Mr. A. Goold, of the Forest of Dean.

The proceedings commenced by singing

after which,

"Let Him to whom we now belong," &c.

Mr. BRAIN, of Kingswood, engaged in prayer.

The CHAIRMAN then introduced the next subject for consideration-viz., "Shall any system of church government be recommended by this meeting to the various circuits and societies in connection with the Reform movement?"

Messrs. Coultas, Anstead, and Whitely, severally addressed the meeting on the question. Mr. MASSINGHAM then moved, and Mr. MARTIN seconded, the following resolution :"That this meeting does not deem it expedient to adopt any regular system of church government to be recommended to the various circuits, but earnestly counsels Reformers, in all their church-meetings, to carry out the principles contained in the resolutions of the last delegate meeting, held at Newcastle, and in the following declaration of principles, which was published by the general committee in February last :

"That Christ is head over all things to his church, and his word the only and sufficient rule both of its faith and practice.

"That no rules or regulations should be adopted, but such as are in accordance with the Holy Scriptures, and have received the full concurrence of the church.

"That the admission of members into the church, the exercise of discipline upon them, and their exclusion from the church, are rights vested solely in the hands of church-members, to be exercised by them either directly or representatively; and that it is the right of members to be present at all meetings for the transaction of the general business of the church.

"That the nomination and election of all office-bearers is the inalienable right of the church.

"That, while desirous of maintaining the Connexional principle, we hold that all local courts should be independent, and their decisions affecting internal economy final.