Ld. North

defcription of perfons, he was afraid that the inconven.ences of war were ufually the moft preffing; and it was not wonderful, that among thofe many fhould be found unwilling to engage in it, for the purpose of preventing a calamity, which might be diftant, and might pafs over their heads to affect pofterity. But the Minifter who thould be capable of tuch reafoinng, would be very unfit to retain his fituation; and if his practice accorded to fuch maxims of indolence and felfconfideration, he should be ftripped of his authority with difgrace, and receive the punishment due to his offence. But he was happy to find that the prefent fervants of the Crown had been actuated by no fuch unworthy motives; they had not fcrupled to difturb the calm, which they perhaps might long have continued to enjoy ; and they had done fo to avert the storm, which was gathering in the North, unlikely as it was to burft over this country, till long after they should have ceafed to have the care of its interefts. They had, therefore, defired His Majefty to negociate a peace between Ruffia and the Porte, and to increafe his naval establishment, in order to add weight to his mediation. The negociation was then depending; and being fo, though no man could be more interested than himself, in maintaining the power and dignity of the Houfe of Commons, he deprecated its interference; not upon the ground of perfonal confidence in his right honourable friend, but upon that which had been marked out by the conftitution itself. That House, as the fountain of fupply to the Crown, had a power, the extent of which could hardly be limited; and God forbid that it fhould have lefs. It was contemplated by the whole world with an admiration little inferior to our own. And why? Was it on account of its adventitious power? That was a poor and pitiful theme of applaufe. It was because it had used that power with wifdom, temper, and moderation. It had followed thofe facred laws which reafon and the spirit of the conftitution had framed; nor had ever feparated refponfibility from its proper at'endant, the exercife of difcretio..

Lord North obferved, that if he could have agreed with the noble Lord (Belgrave) in repofing unlimited confidence in Minifters, he fhould have done it; but no confidence in any Minifter would juftify that Houfe in entailing deftruction on their fellow fubjects. The noble Lord had obferved, that his knowledge on this fubject was very partial. He was in the fame fituation, but he perfectly comprehended the refolutions of his honourable friend, and therefore he held himself bound to vote for thofe refolutions. He wished to know who was to pay the price of all this expence? He concluded, that by the treaty with the King of Pruffia, Great Britain was not bound to give affiftance to her ally,

unless

unless that ally was attacked. The honourable gentleman who spoke last (Mr Pybus) thought that we were not bound by any treaty, though the whole of the argument had gone on the ground that we were bound by the faith of treaties, The treaty was a treaty of defence, and had a specific and determinate meaning; it obliged Great Britain to go to war only after our ally had been actually attacked. It might fairly be contrafted with that extraordinary treaty lately entered into in India, by which we were bound to make war on a specific Prince, till the Nizam and Mahrattas were to be fatiated with plunder. That treaty went no farther, and Heaven knew that this was far enough! By the prefent fyftem, we were to take up arms whenever an opportunity fhould offer for the oppreffion of the reft of Europe. He would admit, for a moment, that fuch a fyftem was founded in juftice and policy, and that the prefent war was not inconfiftent with humanity; but ftill he was at a lofs to know how it could be proved that Oczakow, in the hands of the Czarina, could hurt the interefts either of Pruffia or of this country. The Court of Berlin had never been very fupine or inattentive to her own interefts, and yet the late King of Pruffia had guaranteed places of infinitely more importance to the Empress than Oczakow, which had been in her hands for three years, without making any complaint. She had greatly extended her conquefts, but the House had been affured, and as it had not been contradicted, they muft fuppofe it was true, that he was ready to give up every place, except Oczakow and the country around it. Suppofe that Conftantinople had once more fallen back into the hands of a Chriftian power, and fome of the fineft provinces of the world. were a little more civilized, was the King of Prussia most likely to fuffer? But, after all, was the power and aggrandizement of their ally their only object, and were they to pay no attention to their own domeftic fituation? This country was flourishing, owing, in fome degree, to certain regulations which had been made, and to the increafe of commerce, and the invaluable confequence of fecurity; at the fame time, according to fome opinions, and thefe not inconfiderable, our expenditure had always exceeded our income, and in no ftate had our revenue been fuch, but that in ftood in need of the most rigid economy, It was not our army, and the number of fhips which we poffeffed, that could enfure our fafety. An armament must always bring on this country a very heavy expence. What was it that called them to this war? Holland was bound to them by her intereft and inclination; Spain, it was evident, did not confider the conceffions fhe made us to be of the fame confequence that we did; and whoever attended to the ftate of France, would not

Lord

expect much harm from her, at leaft while fhe remained in her
prefent fituation. However they might difagree about the ca-
lamities the muft undergo in paffing from defpotifm to liberty,
they muft all fubfcribe to the truth of the pofition, that no
Government could be eftablished in that country, which
would not prove more favourable to the tranquillity of Eu-
rope than their old Government. This, therefore, was a
favourable moment for reducing our eftablishment, and for
turning our attention to the cultivation of peace. But there
was an enmity between Ruffia and the Porte, and we were to
be undone if Cczakow were added to the empire of Ruffia,
the limits of which extended from Poland to Kamfchatka.
This, it was fuppofed, might be fatal to the commerce of
Great Britain, or in fome degree deftructive to the liberties
of the Porte. Here, then, was the impending calamity
which threatened us, and which was about to add to the
burdens of a people already too much taxed. Being thorough-
ly convinced that the war was unjuft and unneceffary, and
that it was no way material to the intereft of Great Britain,
that Oczakow was in the poffeffion of Ruffia, he fhould give
his warmeft affent to every meafure which could put an end
to a war, from which he firmly believed in his confcience no
earthly good could poffibly arife, and which muft inevitably
produce the worst confequences. Towards the conclufion
of his fpeech, Lord North remarked, that even if the inte-
refts of our ally were concerned, we fhould pay fome little
regard to our own, particularly as, after fo many years of
peace, it was ftill a queftion, which was the greate, our
expenditure or our income? He added, that we feemed too
much inclined to trifle and procraftinate, and to defer the day
of reckoning-

Tarda fluunt, ingrataq; tempora, quæ fpem
Confiliumque morantur agendi gnaviter id, quod
Eque pauperibus prodeft, locupletibus æque;
que negle&um pueris Jenibus que nocebit.

Lord Belgrave rofe to explain, and denied the charge of Belgrave. his fupporting univerfally the idea of preferring partial to ge

Mr.

neral information; or unlimited confidence to neceffary confidence, fuch as it behoved that Houfe to give, and fuch as it was requifite the executive Government fhould receive.

Mr. Powys expreffed his anxions withes that neither the Powys. zeal of the noble Lord, nor the eloquence of the honourable gentleman who had feconded his motion for the previous queftion, would be able to fupprefs the farther difcuffion of the original queftion, whatfoever opinion the House might entertain of the string of refolutions which had been opened by his honourable friend. They were bound by every duty

which they owed to their conftituents to confider this question.
As to the grounds and principles on which the Houfe had
acted, they were bound to explain them to the people whose
reprefentatives they were, and from whom they had received.
a most important truft. Mr. Powys wifhed, that on the
day when His Majefty's meffage was taken into confideration,
a vote of thanks had only been agreed to, and the confideration
of the justice and policy of the measure poftponed to fome
other day. On a former day, fome gentlemen had contend-
ed for a certain degree of confidence being given to thofe
to whom the executive Government was committed, but
an implicit confidence was now mentioned. If this were to
take place, it would prove infinitely more deftructive than
the war which threatened the country, inafmuch as it would
give a ftab to the conftitution itfelf! His Majefty's Mini-
fters themselves did not claim fupport on that ground. Other
gentlemen had faid that this was merely a measure of expe-
diency, and that the national character and honour were not
pledged. One bonourable gentleman had obferved, that if
the meafure was not juft and politic, the Houfe ought not to
adopt it. Mr. Powys firft confidered the juftice of the cafe,
and remarked, that the mediation of Great Britain was nei-
ther called for on one fide nor the other, but that it had been
obtruded upon the parties. This fort of mediation was there-
fore inconfiftent with thofe moral duties which ought to go-
vern the tranfactions of one country to another. Those
principles had been exchanged for the more enligh ened prin-
ciple of felf-intereft. How did Great Britain know but that
fhe was making herfelf the involuntary ally of Ruffia? Was.
there any immediate danger from the prefent ftate of France?
They had been told that they fhould rifk nothing by the war.
The right honourable gentleman had contended, that the
leaft diminution of the territory of Turkey was a caufe for
Great Britain going to war. Granting that we were to at-
tain our end, could it fecure peace to the world, or bring
about the restoration of permanent tranquillity? Would not
Ruffia feel herfelf difpofed, on every favourable opportunity,
to retaliate upon Great Britain? He defired that the other
fide of the Houfe might meet them on fair ground; he would
allow them to deny the facts, but let them not fhrink from
difcuffion. The time muft even come, when the right ho-
nourable gentleman would vote a fupply to carry on this ar-
mament, and it was incumbent on the Houfe to know what
were the objects for which the fupplies ought to be voted.

Lord Belgrave again rofe to explain. He faid, that by Lord implicit, he did not mean a blind confidence; he meant only Pelgrave. that Minifters ought to have a full, not a half support.

Mr.

Mr.Ryder Mr. Ryder obferved that, for his own part, he applauded the filence of Minifters, notwithstanding that the honourable gentleman on the floor, and the reft of the gentlemen who fpoke on the notion, had blamed that fide of the House, because they fhrunk from the difcuffion. It was eafy for gentlemen on the other fide to use hard words, apply their own opinion to them, and then draw inferences from that opinion; but all this was to be confidered as

"Vox, et præterea nihil.”

He, for one, however, could not avoid thinking that His
Majefty's Minifters had acted wifely in not fuffering them-
felves to be provoked to reply, as they could not have done
fo without violating that duty which they owed their coun-
try, and betraying her deareft interefts. For a blind con-
fidence he never fhould contend; but he must say, that a con-
fence ought to be given to His Majefty's Ministers to a
certain extent, not arifing out of the obvious arguments
urged by Minifters, becaufe it was evident that they could
urge no argument, without betraying their truft to the Pub-
lic. What could an argument from that fide of the House
on fuch a fubject confift of, but a statement of the circum-
ftances and progrefs of the negociation, which would render
it impoffible for either party to recede or retract, if they
wifhed to do fo, and confequently throw obftacles in the
way of adjustment: and would any man then fay, that fuch
a communication ought to be made? An honourable gentle-
man had declared, that His Majefty's Minifters, on the
prefent occafion, acted in a manner which would not have
been ventured upon even by the Minifters of France, whom
the honourable gentleman defcribed as having been more for-
midable a year before the revolution, than in the glorious
reign of Louis XIV. This, Mr, Ryder obferved, he could
not credit, as Minifters had done no more than their duty
compelled. It had been alfo argued, that calling for confi-
dence, without ftating fome information to the House, was
a perfect novelty. He was furprifed at both thefe obferva-
t'ons, as the fanie conduct precifely had been pursued over
and over again in our own country. In proof of this, gen-
tlemen would pleafe to recollect the inftance in 1716, when
armaments were fent into the Baltic, and yet Minifters had
faid no more to Parliament then than had been faid now. In
like manner did they remember, that in the year 1726, when
Ruffia meditated the overthrow of the King of Sweden, Mi-
nifters preferved a like filence. The fame thing had hap-
pened in 1733, when Poland was the fubject. The fame
confidence had then been afked and granted. After reafon-

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