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Mr.Grey.

at the fame time, in cafe of certain emergencies, brought to the use of the Bank; a circumftance which, of itself, would deter fome people from appointing the Bank to be the custodees of their property, and induce them to prefer the public fecurity, in which was involved the whole revenue and credit of the nation. Mr. Dundas affirmed that no injury was attempted against the public creditor, and that every opportunity was allowed him to make choice of his fecurity. He introduced the Confolidation Act, and other measures, as precedents for varying public fecurity; and he remarked, that the clamour which had attended this meafure, was needlefs, and of no fervice whatever. The right honourable gentleman had, in his ufual way, when he was at a lofs for better argument, appealed to the knowledge and the common fenfe of gentlemen upon the abfurdity of a meafure; but he did not fuppofe that this would have much effect; on the contrary, he was inclined to hope, that he might fucceed in his appeal to the wifdom and good fenfe of the House, and he trusted that they would confider the measure, in favour of which he meant to vote, as not deficient in either propriety or justice.

Mr. Grey faid, that it was impoffible to avoid adverting to the mode in which the right honourable gentleman had chofen to reflect upon his right honourable friend, for appealing to the common fenfe and feelings of the House, without admiring the juftice of the reflection, by the readiness with which the right honourable gentleman had followed the fame plan, no doubt conceiving that it would be much better and fairer, as coming from him, changing the fecurity of the public creditor, not only without his confert, but abfolutely against his will, declared in the most exprefs terms, as the petitions on the table proved, was a measure on which little argument was neceffary to convince any man of common fenfe, who would take the trouble of judging for himself, of its impropriety, injuftice, and injurious confequences to the public credit of the nation; and this, he contended, was the avowed and notorious tendency of the prefent violent and deftructive measure. Mr. Grey confidered the implied confent talked of by fome people as ridiculous in the extreme, when it was evident, as far as it could be carried, if the prefent claufe were refuted, that the power of diffent must become totally and completely withholden from the creditor by the del tor, as well as the choice of fecurity. In conclufion, Mr. Grey obferved, that the country had, upon many occafions of emergency, reforted to the Bank for loans, which were readily granted; yet, notwithstanding that he did not entertain the leaft doubt but that the fame difpofition to come forward with affiftance, would fhew itfelf during any

future

future exigency of our affairs, he anxiously hoped that the period of national diftrefs, granting that it were to come at all, was far diftant.

Mr. Stanley, jun. fpoke against the claufe, and totally approved of the bill.

Sir William Young expreffed his determination to vote against Sr W. the claufe, and infinuated an opinion, that there might be Young. motives not quite fo difinterested as was generally thought for the oppofition given to the bill. He alluded likewife to the difavowal of the Bank Directors, firft, that the advantage derived from floating balances was any object with them, and afterwards, as to they and their friends ftating the right which they had to that profit.

Sir J. St. Clair Erfkine conceived, that all parties intereft- Sir James ed in the operation of the bill, were entitled to give either St. Clair their confent or diffent; and he thought that all flockholders, Erkinc. as well as thofe who now were proprietors of unclaimed dividends, came under this defcription. As to the three months notice in the bill, he deemed it perfectly inadequate to the purpofe, and inconvenient and troublesome to the proprietors, who muft withdraw their dividends regularly, and whether they wished to do it or not; or if by abfence, neglect, or any mistake, they allowed the three months to elapfe, then their property was feized on without their confent, and the fecurity of the Bank, which they had preferred to any other, was varied and transferred to the Public, without their having any power to diffent at the time, or alter afwards, without much trouble or expence. A perfon in the country might have no friend in town whom he wished to truft with a power of attorney, or the management of his money; in that cafe, it was a common and fafe way to let it remain in the Bank till he came to town, or wifhed to draw; but if this bill paffed, that could not be done. In conclufion, Sir James complained that feveral honourable gentlemen on the other fide of the Houfe had, during the course of the debate, and in every ftage of the bill, changed their ground, and avoided, as much as poffible, a fair difcuffion of the subject.

Mr. Mitford expreffed his aftonishment that the bill had Mr. met fo much oppofition: he could not fee the difficulties and Mitford. inconveniencies attending its operation, and thought it a very easy matter for a perfon in the country, who disliked the bill, and was poffeffed of unclaimed dividends, to defire his agent to transfer his property from the Public fecurity to the Bank ftock. Much had been urged concerning the meaning of the words frivolous and vexatious; words, under the application of which, the complainants against the bill most certainly did not deferve to fall,

Mr. Ald. Mr. Alderman Watson vindicated the Bank and Directors Watfon. against what he called the unjuft and unmerited attack which had been made upon them, by the honourable Baronet who spoke laft but one in the debate.

Mr. Fox.

Mr. Huffey.

Mr.

Sir William Young explained.

Mr. Fox defired to receive an explanation from an honourable and learned gentleman who advanced the argument, or any other learned gentleman, whether a perfon refiding in the country could, by his agent, get his ftock transferred from the Public fecurity to Bank fecurity; his own idea upon the fubject was quite the reverse.

Mr. Mitford appeared to entertain a contrary opinion.

Mr. Huffey could not help differing from the right honourable and learned gentleman, who thought the public fecurity as good as the Bank, in the way the Public now had it; and he put the cafe thus: If one gentleman borrows 100l. from another, and agrees to place value for the fecurity of the lender in the hands of Meffrs. Hoare and Mr. Child, and afterwards thinks it more convenient, and proposes that one houfe only should be fecurity, would this be the fame to the lender? Now, the cafe was precifely fimilar; for at prefent, the public creditor had both the Bank and the Public fecurity, whereas he will in future be left with one only. Mr. Huffey ftated, that Government owed to the Bank eleven millions, for which they received 330,000l. per annum intereft. He added, that he did not blufh to own that he was a proprietor and stockholder, and that he argued for his interefts. The impoffibility that the property and interests of individuals could be otherwife than materially affected, when the interefts of the whole community were concerned, was an opinion to which he felt himfelf fully warranted in adhering.

Mr. Sarjent applauded the measure, as well adapted to the Sarjent. object for which it was intended. He thought it the duty of every Chancellor of the Exchequer to take all fafe method's of paying off fuch public debts as were like to be least felt by the people; and fuch, in his opinion, was the nature of the bill in queftion.

Mr.

At length, the Houfe divided on the clause;

Ayes, 45; Noes, 136. Majority 91.
When the next claufe fell under difcuffion,

Mr. Huffey rofe, and remarked, that the Chancellor of the Huffey. Exchequer had formerly ftated as an argument, to prove that the money to be taken from the Bank would be all repaid in one day, if demanded, that there was never lefs than 500,000l. in the Exchequer. He fhould be glad to know why this money could not be applied to the public fervice, as well as the floating balance of the money iffucd for the payment of dividends,

dividends, fince it was precisely the fame thing to the Public whether the money lay unemployed at the Bank or the Exchequer.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt anfwered, that the fupplies voted for Mr. Pitt. the fervice of the current year, came into the Exchequer fo as not only to meet the current demand, but to leave a furplus ready to meet any unforeseen exigency. This furplus confifted partly in money and partly in Exchequer bills, which bearing no intereft till the date at which they were iffued, the Public could not become lovers by their lying unemployed in the Exchequer.

Mr. Harrifon contended, that one of the ftrongeft in- Mr. ftances which could poffibly be produced of the impropriety Harrifen. of taking the floating balance out of the Bank, was the extraordinary means to which they were obliged to refort to provide for making it good; and these were, pledging all the money in the Exchequer, appropriated by act of Parliament to other purposes. To rep..y it by Exchequer bills, was neither more nor lefs than adding 500,000l. to the unfunded debt; and it could occafion very little difference to the Public, whether this was done in the first inftance or the second. It must have a bad appearance in the eyes of the world, to refort to means of raising money which feemed to imply that all our other refources were exhaufted. Much had been advanced during the debate on the convention, respecting the ftrong impreffion which the facility and expedition with which we had equipped a formidable arinament must make on all the neighbouring powers. The advantage to be derived from that impreffion, had even been reprefented as alone worth all the expence which the armament had coft us; but there was ample caufe for apprehending that a counter-balance against the favourable impreffion of the armament, would arife from the unfavourable impreffion of the prefent measure.

Mr. Whitbread obferved that, in his opinion, the circum- Mr. Whitftance of a furplus in the Exchequer, confirmed what he had bread. advanced in a former debate, that Exchequer bills were the ultimate fecurity to the public creditor for the floating balance taken by the Public. If the furplus of fupplies in the Exchequer confifted chiefly of Exchequer bills, they must be the chief part of the fecurity, and that fecurity was not bet ter, because the money was taken from the Bank. With regard to the cafe put by an honourable Baronet, that were a perfon borrowing money on a tontine to agree with the lenders that the intereft fhould be paid at a Banker's, this would make part of the contract between the parties; when the money was iffued for payment of the intereft, the Banker would place it to account of the feveral perfons to whom he had engaged to pay it, and the borrower could not call

back

Mr. Fox.

Mr. Pitt.

back any part of it, whatever balance might be left by thofe perfons in the Banker's hands. Such was the fituation of the Bank between the Public and the public creditor; but were this statement of the law of the cafe erroneous, then it was abfurd in the Public to call for money by an act of Parliament, which the Exchequer might call in by a legal process. The report of this claufe was agreed to.

Mr. Fox obferved, that he had an amendment to fuggeft on the preamble. Gentlemen would recollect, that when he argued that the whole fum to be taken from the Bank could not be repaid at once, were it to be fo demanded, a right honourable gentleman felt it neceffary to clear himself, with fome warmth, from the imputation of having ever faid that it could be repaid immediately, in the ftrict fense of the word, and to explain that he meant only, that it would be repaid fo fpeedily as never to pafs beyond the day on which it was demanded. If the right honourable gentleman was fo jealous of his honour, the Houfe ought to be equally jealous of theirs, and not hold out to the Public, in the preamble of the bill, what they knew to be falle in fact. He fhould therefore move to leave out the word "immediate" in the preamble, and infert the word "speedy."

Mr. Chancellor Pitt anfwered, that the word immediate was used only in its general fenfe, and was meant only to imply, that payment would be made within the day on which it was demanded; but as he had as unavoidably as reluctantly entered into fuch a multitude of difputes on the bill with the right honourable gentleman, and as the purport and effect of it were not to be collected merely from the preamble, but the claufes, he fhould, by not oppofing the amendment, avoid any farther altercation.

The word "immediate" was ftricken out, and the word "Speedy" inferted.

The bill was ordered to be engroffed, and read a third time upon the enfuing Tuesday.

The Houfe adjourned.

Monday, 28th March.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt brought up the following Meffige from His Majefty, which was read by the Speaker, the Members being uncovered:

GEORGE R.

His Majefty thinks it neceffary to acquaint the House of Commons, that the endeavours which His Majefty has used, in conjunction with his allies, to effect a pacification between Ruffia and the Perte, having hitherto been unsuccessful, and the confequences which may arife from the farther progress of the war, being

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