Mr. been delufively stated, and gloffed over, in order to appear well in the eyes of the public, and fo he had ever contended; but it had never been admitted at all, that any part of what he difputed was founded before that day; whereas, from what the right honourable gentleman had himself said that day, it was evident to the Committee, that he had been correct in all that he had advanced. Mr. Sheridan before he concluded went into particulars to prove his affertions, and defired the Committee to attend to the whole of them in forming their opinion on the fubject. Mr. Pitt, in reply, again detailed the principal articles of the expenditure, in order to prove that the honourable gentleman was completely mistaken. Mr. Sheridan got up, once more to answer several parts of Sheridan. Mr. Pitt's laft argument. He admitted, that a great caufe of the increase was to be imputed to unforeseen circumstances; fuch as the provifion for the younger part of the Royal Family which he declared he highly approved; but he contended that every year would bring with it its amount of cafual and incidental expences, which ought to be allowed for, and therfore it was incumbent on them to inform the country of the real truth, and not delude the people by telling them that this year there would be fuch a furplus, and next year a greater, when the chance was entirely the other way. Mr. Sheridan mentioned the finishing of Carlton Houfe, which would occafion another increafe, and to which the Houfe was committed, having promifed to provide for it, the Prince having no intereft in it, &c. and therefore it muft foon come under confideration. He alfo adverted to the debt from Holland, and faid, if the payments by inftallments were applied to the expenditure inftead of extinguishing the public debt, that the whole of that loan muft be added to the amount of the national expenditure. Mr. Rofc. Mr. Fox. Mr. Rofe faid, he was of a very different opinion from the honourable gentleman, and whenever they came to discuss the subject, he had no doubt but he should be able to prove that the honourable gentleman was mistaken. There were a great number of mifcellaneous fervices, Mr. Rofe faid, which his right honourable friend had stated, and which it must be obvious could never occur again; and if the fubject were accurately examined, he was confident that instead of 1,300,000l. the excefs would be found to be little more than 300,000l. Mr. Fox faid, that he would in a few words ftate what he at prefent meant to fay. The obfervations, which he had to offer, it gave him no fatisfaction to make, and would give them no fatisfaction to hear. It now appeared, that the Committee of 1786 had been mistaken with regardto no lefs a fum than 500,000l. The blame indeed lay not on them; this increafe of expence, except in the additional 100,0col. for the army, could not be forefeen. But at the fame time, if this Committee, with all their knowledge, with all the weight which had been given to their fatements, had been mistaken to fo large an amount, the circumftance, though it could not affect his confidence in them individually, very much diminished his confidence in all Committees of this fort. The additional expence of the army alone had been stated to be permanent. And he at the time had objected to the addition to the establishment of fo large a permanent expence. But the additional expence of the navy, of the ordnance, and of the mifcellaneous fervices, had never been ftated to be permanent. A Committee in 1786 states fuch a fum; and in the space of only five years, an addition of 500,0col. appears neceffary. He was ready to allow the ftatement that had been made by the right honourable gentleman with regard to the tontine million. With regard to the miscellaneous fervices in 1786, the Committee had eftimated this article of the expence at only 70,000l. Such an eftimate, at the time, appeared to every body as quité too little, and to carry ridicule in the very face of it. The prefent Committee had ftated the mifcellaneous fervices at 120,000!. This fum likewife, to his honourable friend, appeared too little. To be fure, an honourable gentleman on the other fide had scouted the idea that this fum could poffibly be deemed too little; but it was probable that he might have treated, in the fame manner, any objection to the former fum of 70,000l.; he had pledged himfelf to make it appear that the fum of 120,000l. was fully fufficient, but as he had proved that he was mistaken before, it might be. believed that he could be mistaken again. The revenue, we were told, continued Mr. Fox, had encreafed in proportion to the additional expence; but what provifion did this affurance afford us for future expence? Will the revenue always encrease in proportion to the encreafe of expence? The converfe of the propofition, there was but too much. reafon to apprehend, would be the cafe. That had, in this inftance, happened to the public, which frequently happens to individuals. Calcuations with refpect to their revenue were, according to circumftances, juft or unjuft. But any eftimate formed of their expenditure alway fell below the mark. What had we to expect, if at the very outfet of what was stated as our peace establishment, the fum exceeded the estimates that had been formed confiderably upwards of 300,000l. No circumstances have happened fince 1786 to render any increase of expence neceffary. On the contrary, any alteration that had taken place in the general fituation 3 K 2 of of affairs, ought rather to have had a contrary effect. The right honourable gentleman had treated it as a matter of indifference whether the inftallments were applied to discharge the debt, or to defray the fervices of the current year. Here Mr. Fox faid, he begged leave to differ with him. If we had had nothing to do with the 178,000l. any deficiency in the fum neceffary for the current fervice would have been found out, and fome way or other fupplied. It appeared to him, that in the prefent fituation of the country, our expences ought to be fet at the lowest mark poffible; and if the revenue was increafing, that that increafe ought to be applied, in order to difcharge the debt, and not to promote any addition of expence that might be made to the establishment. Mr. Fox faid he had rifen on purpofe to put the country on their guard against the reports of Committees. It now appeared that the report of no Committee, however well intentioned, or however able, could be implicitly received. After fo grofs a mistake, which amounted, by the calculation of his honourable friend, to 500,ocal. and by that of the right honourable gentleman was allowed not to fall much fhort of 400,000l. it was proper to liften to their estimates with diffidence. It was neceffary, by their own active œconomy, and by their attention to whatever related to public expenditure, to render thefe accounts true, inftead of implicitly receiving them on the faith of a report, till the moment of reckoning came, that fhould convince them of the error of their confidence, and the fallacy of their hopes. Mr. Mr. Pulteney remarked, that if the actual expenditure now Pulteney. differed from what the report in 1786 had ftated, it ought to be on the permanent peace eftablishment, even in the proportion admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He thought that circumftance worthy of confideration, and that the expenditure of the country ought to be managed as œconomically as poffible. He faid, one material article which had been flated as permanent, was the navy estimates; and to this point he thought very particular attention was due; becaufe, in the detail of the extraordinary expences of the naval eftablishment, they muft all know that it was liable, from its nature, to much fraud and extravagance; and this could not be put in a ftronger light, than by the statement given in by Sir Charles Middleton, a man well verfed in the detail of the neceffary expences, and acquainted with the articles that were moft liable to be wafted or overcharged. His statement differed, to the amount of more than 100,000l. from another given in. Mr. Pulteney faid, he only meant, by mentioning this circumftance, to fhew that much attention fhould be paid to this, being one great branch of per manent manent expence. With regard to the calculations made either in the prefent report, or that of 1786, he thought it was unfair to confider as calculations or opinions of the Committees, because, in fact, they were only calculations and opinions formed from materials which were laid before thefe Committees. Mr. Fox faid, that he had always confidered the reports Mr. Fox, as founded on the information which was laid before the Committee. The refolutions were feverally put and agreed to, and the House being refumed, the report was ordered to be brought upto-morrow. The Houfe adjourned. Thursday, 19th May. The report of the Budget was brought up by Mr. Hobart, and the refolutions having been read a first and second time, were agreed to. Mr. Benfield wifhed to know what the amount of the un- Mr. funded debt was? He fhould have been glad, he faid, if the Benfield. Finance Committee had flated the amount of the unfunded as well as of the funded debt. It would have been a credit to the country to look all its incumbrances in the face, and it was a fubject which moft undoubtedly ought to be laid before the Public. Mr. Mr. Ryder informed the honourable gentleman, that if he would perufe the Report of the Finance Committee, he Ryder. would find the unfunded debt was exprefsly ftated in it. During the reading the report of the Committee of Ways and Means, lor. Mr. M. A. Taylor rofe, and faid, he really wifhed for in- Mr. M. formation on a fubject of which he profeffed himself to be A. Tayignorant, not having been in the Houfe the preceding day. He understood that the right honourable gentleman intended, on the following day, to move for a farther fum of money for the Royal Family; he wifhed, therefore, to know what had been, or was meant to be done for the widow of the late Duke of Cumberland, who ought undoubtedly to have an handfome provifion equal to her dignity? If the right honourable gentleman, he faid, would condefcend to favour him with an answer, it would decide whether he should or fhould not think it neceffary to bring forward a motion on the fubject. Mr. Chancellor Pitt faid, he had not propofed any thing Mr. Piss. on the fubject alluded to by the honourable gentleman, not having had it in command from His Majefty to make any fuch propofition to the Houfe; and deeming it highly unbecoming in him to ftate any thing to the House respecting any part Mr. part of the Royal Family, unless he had previously received His Majefty's orders to that purpofe. It was not, Mr. Pitt faid, a fit fubject for difcuffion in that Houfe; but if the honourable gentleman would look to the account of the civil lift charges that lay on the table, he would fee the fum paid to the Duchefs of Cumberland by way of annuity. When the refolution relative to the Lottery was read, Mr. Huffy faid, with respect to the lottery, although the Huffey. profits of it had been greater this year than it had been on any former year, and although they ought to thank the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Pitt) for making the most of it, yet he was clearly of opinion that it was attended with the moft pernicious confequences. It was a great difcouragement to the honeft industry of the country; it inflamed the defires of every poor perfon, and of every poor fervant, in this great metropolis to grow rich at once, and not by the flow and gradual means of honeft industry and daily labour. He faid, it was difhonourable and fhameful to the country to countenance fuch a fraudulent bargain. They faw men buy and give more for lottery tickets than they knew they were worth. This was undeniably a fraudulent bargain, and was fhameful to the country. The Minifter put thefe tickets up to auction, to get the best price for them, and to induce perfons to become purchafers at a high and advanced rate. Befides that, before the tickets came to thofe poor deluded people, the Public got 3co,cool., and it was extremely prohable that Lottery-office keepers got as much more by felling the number of tickets twice over, and by infuring. He knew, he faid, that he had the majority of both fides of the House against him, but he nevertheless felt it to be his duty to speak his opinion. He thought the country received much more damage from a lottery than profit; and he hoped and trusted that the right honourable gentleman would make this the laft. He faid, if the Houfe entertained the fame fentiments with regard to lotteries that he did, they would put an end to them at once. Mr. Pitt. Mr. Chancellor Pitt faid, he entertained an opinion on the fubject extremely different from that ftated by the honourable gentleman; fo far from being of his way of thinking, he fhould be forry if the enfuing were to be the laft lottery. He thought it was a refource of which the Public ought to avail itfelf. If they were to put an end to the lottery, he conceived that would not put an end to the principles and practice of gambling, but that the Public would fuffer all the inconvenience without reaping any of the benefit. They could not prevent people from having recourfe to the lotteries of other countries, and to private adventures, which would be attended with more ferious confequences to indi viduals, |