mer shape, or that in which it was now proposed to frame it, would not tend to relieve the burthens of the people in the slightest degree. No person had a right to call in question the motives by which any member in that house was influenced in his parliamentary conduct; but he declared, upon his honour, that he acted most conscientiously in opposing a measure, the tendency of which was to take from the power of the crown, when it was not shewn that in any one instance that power had been abused. offices in reversion, certainly, therefore, Mr. Ponsonby made an apology for troubling the house, after the most admirable speech which had been made by his hon. friend (Mr. Ward), but after what had fallen from the hon. gent. who had just sat down, he could not refrain from making a very few observations. The hon. gent. had talked as if the prerogative of the crown was something independent in its own nature, and granted entirely for the sake of the reigning prince, without any reference whatever to the community over which he reigns. The hon. gent. also contended, that no abuse of this part of the prerogative had been proved. Mr. Ponsonby admitted that the Committee of Finance had not entered into any details of abuses flowing from the exercise of this prerogative, but he appealed to the understanding and information of every person who heard him, whether any part of the royal prerogative had been more abused than that of granting offices in reversion. The hon. gent. had reprobated the doctrine, that the house of commons was entitled to interfere with the prerogative of the crown, as a doctrine which, if once admitted, would reduce the constitution of the country to a mere shadow and pretence. Parliament had often interfered, and he hoped that parliament would continue to interfere with this prerogative, as often as the occasion called for it, and that it would always take care that the royal prerogative was exercised for the good of the people. Mr. Ponsonby admitted that there was considerable weight in what the chancellor of the exchequer had said, of the propriety of guarding against any thing which might tend to create a serious misunderstanding between the two branches of the -legislature. But he reminded the house, that they were the constitutional guardians Mr. Biddulph thought that the proceedof the public purse, and that in this capa-ings of the house of lords upon the former city it was peculiarly their duty to watch bill, went upon a principle which was unover every thing connected with the public favourable to all reform; and the clauses expenditure. The power of granting of which the chancellor of the exchequer had VOL. X. 4 M had been formerly manifested in passing a bill for an unlimited period. He was happy, also, that the chancellor of the exchequer had announced his intention of proposing certain clauses to be introduced into the bill, were it for no other reason than that these clauses would enable the house and the country to form some notion of what really were the sentiments of his majesty's ministers upon the subject, of which they were now completely ignorant. From what had fallen from the right hon. gent. in the progress of the former bill, it might have been inferred that ministers were favourable to it; but from the minutes of what had passed in the house of lords, a different conclusion might fairly be drawn. this evening announced his intention of proposing, would not, in his opinion, tend in the smallest degree to remove the objections of those who had disapproved of the former bill, on the ground of its infringing the royal prerogative. The quantum of good to be obtained from the bill had also been much too lightly spoken of. When it appeared that certain persons possessed Offices in Reversion to the value of 20,000l. a year, it would not be easy to convince the people, burthened as they were with taxation, that every thing had been done which ought to be done in the way of economy. From the habits of some gentlemen, it was difficult for them to form an adequate idea of the sufferings of the people from the necessary taxes that they were obliged to pay. But if they had been accustomed to witness the distress of poor people, whom he had had occasion to see appealing against the property tax, he did not believe that they could have manifested so much aversion to a measure, the economical results of which, though they might not be very considerable in their amount, would tend at least to alleviate the pressure of these burthens in the minds of those who were subjected to them. Not the least recommendation of the present measure to him was, that it was the commencement of a system of reform, which might be pursued to a much greater extent than many gentlemen seemed to be properly aware of; and as a proof of what might be expected from it, he quoted the advantage which the public had already derived from the inquiry of the finance committee into the affairs of the Bank, by which taxes were spared to the amount of 200,000l. a year; though he conceived that that was not more than one half of the benefit which, under all the circumstances, might have been fairly expected. Mr. Hawkins Browne considered the present Bill to be valuable as constituting a part of a general plan of reform, which he hoped would be pursued with zeal and constancy. He had seen what the people suffered from the burthens of necessary taxation, and while he lamented and sympathised with these sufferings, he had had great pleasure in witnessing the patience with which they were supported. It was most desirable, however, that both houses of parliament should concur, for without an agreement of the two branches of the legislature, no plan, however beneficial, could be carried into effect. He did not mean now to express any opinion respecting the clauses, which it was the intention of the chancellor of the exchequer to propose. If they were consistent with the object of the bill, they should have his support, and if they were inconsistent with this object, he should vote against them, Sir R. Salusbury said that the bill should have his warm support. Lord Porchester contended, that the clauses which the chancellor of the exchequer had intimated his intention of proposing would go completely to defeat the object of the bill; but as they were not before the house, he declined entering into a particular discussion of their merits. He deprecated the idea of the house of commons being deterred from doing its duty, from an apprehension of displeasing the other house of parliament. Neither could he, agree with those, who thought that the object of the bill was so unimportant as had been represented, when it was recollected, that the late chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland had stated that it was impossible to carry some measures of reform in that country into effect, from the circumstance of some improvident grants having been made of Offices in Reversion. He thought also, that it would be much better for the house directly to negative the present measure, than to render its operations ineffectual by indirect means. Mr. Bankes, in reply, expressed a hope that the chancellor of the exchequer would give sufficient notice of the precise nature of the clauses which he meant to propose, and also of the time when he meant to propose them. As far as he now understood them, he was of opinion that their tendency went completely to disappoint the object which he had in view in moving for the bill.-Leave was then given to bring in the bill. [LOTTERIES.] Mr. Scroop Bernard, pursuant to notice, moved, "That a committee be appointed to inquire how far the evils attending Lotteries have been remedied by the laws passed respecting the same, and to report their observations thereon to the house, together with such further measures as may be necessary for remedying the same. The hon. gent. prefaced his motion by several observations, which, from the low tone in which they were delivered, we feel it impossible to detail. The general purport of them was, to show the loss sustained by the public from the present mode of contracting for Lotteries, and the artifices used to seduce the lower house certain Resolutions upon the general policy of those measures which his majesty's ministers have thought proper to carry into execution against the rights of neutral and independent states. In discussing this momentous subject, both as to the application and effect of the measures adopted, I can safely assume, that under the designation of neutral countries, America stands the most prominent, if not the only nation against which the immediate operation of the Orders in Council is di classes of the people to adventure in the | in pursuance of the notice I have previsame, to the great injury and impoverish-ously given, I now rise to submit to this ment of their families. He quoted a passage from a statute, which stated Lotteries to be public nuisances, and agreed that the evil had of late risen to such a height, as to call for the interference of the legislature. The contractors, however, were not so much to blame; as, by purchasing the Lotteries, at a rate so much higher than the real value of the tickets, they were constrained to use the means they resorted to for the purpose of bringing themselves home again without injury; and if, from the report of the committee which he pro-rected. In the many debates to which posed should be appointed, it should be thought desirable that the present mode of carrying on Lotteries should be discontinued, he was of opinion that such persons as had embarked property in such speculations should be saved harmless. The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not mean to oppose the motion, though, at the same time, he was not prepared to say that if it was the object of the hon. gent. to abolish the present system of Lotteries, by which the public gained to the amount of 5 or 600,000l. annually, he should consent to any such proposition. There had been many remedies provided by statute for evils arising from Lotteries, and as he could not say that others might not also be devised, he should agree to the motion of the hon. gent. for a committee to enquire. As to the statute which had been quoted by the hon. gent., he had only to observe, that it had been passed for abolishing unlicensed Lotteries, and did not at all apply to those Lotteries which were every year sanctioned by an act of the legislature, and the evils of which even had been aggravated, of late years, by the practice of granting private lotteries by act of parliament, much to the prejudice of the public lotteries. If the object of the hon. gent. was to reduce the price of tickets to the actual value, as that would interfere with the source of public profit upon Lotteries, he could not agree to his proposal, though he should be disposed to assent to any proposition, which would be calculated to diminish the evils arising from insurance, which had always been the source of the greatest mischief.-The Committee was then appointed. HOUSE OF LORDS. Tuesday, March 29. [ORDERS IN COUNCIL, AS CONNECTED WITH AMERICA.] Lord Holland. My lords; these Orders have given birth, it has been argued with considerable force by my noble friends near me, that the system pursued by the king's ministers, since the 11th of Nov. last, was not only incompatible with that public law which hitherto regulated the conduct of civilised nations in their intercourse with each other, but was also repugnant to the municipal enactments of this country. Upon this part of the subject it is not now my intention to enlarge, for, allowing that to be true which I do not feel, namely, that the Orders in Council were justified by the law of nations; allowing that in place of being hostile to the spirit and letter of our municípal code, they were to be defended by the provisions of positive statutes; still I contend, that under the present circumstances of the world, and with a view to the nature of the relations existing between this country and the U. States of America, and, above all, as I reflect upon the dangerous consequences to which they will probably lead, still I contend, that upon their policy alone his majesty has been advised to adopt a course of proceeding vitally injurious to the best and most essential interests of G. Britain. It is with such an impression that I have felt it a most pressing duty to call upon this house to interpose. I call upon it to record its deliberate opinion upon the ruinous impolicy of the conduct pursued by his majesty's ministers. Past experience has proved, that such an interference on the part of the parliament of this country has heretofore stopped the career of injudicious violence, and preserved the country from the difficulties and dangers which the continuance in a course of policy similar to this must have inevitably intailed. We have not yet, fortunately, so far proceeded in this path of impropriety, as to be deprived of the power of retracting our steps. We have not plunged so deep Europe; and subject to the taxation of a into this sea of troubles, that we may not foreign state, possessed of no right or yet be able to regain our course. We controul over her, the whole of her comhave not yet gone so far in this work of mercial and shipping interests. One would calamity, that the warning voice of this have thought that there could not be found house might not still save us from impend- in this country, so recently after what has ing ruin and absolute destruction. That happened in our connection with America, ruin and that destruction there was no persons determined to revive that principle more certain method of effecting, than by of American revenue which lost that driving the people of America into hos- country for ever to G. Britain. It was tility with G. Britain. And what other not only to impositions or restrictions upon effect than this can the noble lords oppo- | her trade that these Orders were limited. site expect? Do they conceive that a They took a more extensive range, and great and independent nation, with rights were attended with more violent conseand interests which it is her duty to pro- quences. They devoted to confiscation tect, will quietly succumb to a course of any American vessel on board of which a proceeding which goes to interrupt the French certificate of the growth and origin whole of her extensive commerce with the of the cargoes was found by any of our continent of Europe, and subject to im- cruizers. It is necessary on this point to posts, to prohibitions, and, in some cases, observe, that any belligerent has a right to confiscation, her shipping and cargoes. to demand such a certificate from any It is impossible that any such hope could neutral trading to the ports of that bellibe entertained, even by the most credu- gerent. Such a right was recognized by lous. But, was this all? Were ministers the law of nations, and had been exercised satisfied with the aggression committed by heretofore by France, and also acted upon the execution of the Orders in Council on in this country. To the Americans tradAmerica? No; insult was added to in- ing to the ports of France, it was necesjury, and the evil was considerably aggra- sary, in order to legalize the sale of their vated by the contumelious manner in cargo in that country. But, the Orders in which it was carried into effect. This sys- Council have reduced them to this ditem, so destructive to the prosperity of lemma, that without this certificate of America, is first adopted without any al- origin, they are liable to confiscation in any leged provocation, and of the intention of port of the continent of Europe, subject to acting upon it the ministers of this country the dominion of France; and, on the high would not deign to communicate to the seas, the very discovery of this document, American government any previous inti- by a British cruiser, is sure to expose them mation. Indeed, we have it from their to unconditional confiscation, in all places own mouths, that even the very gentleman under the dominion of the sovereign of (Mr. Rose) whom it was deemed advisable this united kingdom.-But, without arto send so recently to that country, on a guing upon the abstract merits of this part special mission, was, at the time of his de- of the subject, the fact was this. That parture, totally ignorant, not only of the the certificate signed by the French consul nature of these Orders in Council, but of in the ports of America was but a sorry sethe intention of the king's government to curity to France against the importation of resort to such a course of policy. And, British produce and manufactures into the my lords, let us consider the period which continent of Europe, whilst its possession was selected for the adoption of this by the American trader gave him the system. It was at a time when, from cer- ability of conveying into the very ports of tain occurrences, our relations with Ame- the enemy, without risk or disturbance, rica were disturbed, and when actually a those very articles, against the introduction special mission was sent forward, by G. of which this very document was substiBritain, to enter into such explanations as tuted as an expedient. But, it was not were most conducive to an amicable ar- merely in the measure of the Orders in rangement upon that point. Under such Council that this disregard for the friendcircumstances it was that ministers ven- ship and amity of America was evinced. tured to carry into operation measures The same feeling uniformly characterised which go to deprive a great and growing every proceeding of the king's ministers nation, such undoubtedly as America is, with regard to that country. It was maof its great staple trade, namely, the ex- nifested in the tone and temper of the portation of cotton to the continent of communications, which had recently taken place between the two governments, and most conspicuously so in the manner in which the negociation, which, in concert with my noble friend near me, I had the honour to conduct, was so improvidently and intemperately broken off by his ma-rected, not only against the coasting trade jesty's secretary for foreign affairs (Mr. of the enemy, but to interrupt neutrals in Canning.) And, with respect to that a commerce of discharge from port to treaty, I must be allowed to offer a few port of the enemies territories. That is, observations, in order to rebut the misre- an American ship, trading direct to Borpresentations which have been so indus-deaux, and there having disposed of a part triously circulated out of doors on this subject. It has been asserted, that the executive authority of America had actually sent back the treaty itself, with a refusal to ratify it; and that certain amendments were affixed, without which it would never be sanctioned in that country. It is not true that such a proceeding took place. It was true that a copy of the treaty had been transmitted from America, with certain explanations, which the president of the U. States had temperately recommended as proper to be maturely determined, particularly upon the point affecting the right of our armed ships to impress American seamen. No such peremptory admission was affixed, and, therefore, it is with no small share of astonishment, that in the form in which the copy of that treaty is printed for the use of this house, and with the proposed amendments affixed to the margin, I find the source from whence this impression on the public mind originated. I do not charge any person with such an intention, but am certain that it was calculated, and actually did produce this delusive effect; and, moreover, I do assert, that these proposed amendments were not meant as the sine qua non, without which the president of the U. States would not sanction the treaty. In all former discussions on the subject of the Orders in Council, the great ground upon which ministers have ventured to defend them, the only point of justification on which they rely, is the Order of the 7th of Jan. 1807, which the late administration had conceived it its duty to enforce. If, therefore, this ground be proved to be not only untenable, but that ministers themselves were aware of its not being at all applicable to the system which they have pursued, there is a duty left for this house to interpose by its solemn and recorded resolution. The Order of the 7th of Jan. did not excite in America any strong objections against the principle of the policy. The uneasiness that was there excited, and the apprehensions which were entertained on that subject, arose from a of her cargo, was restricted from continu- |