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nothing would tend more to embarrass his parte; that he was not authorised to sign majesty's ministers, or to defeat them in passports, in a regular way, between this the object of obtaining an advantageous country and France, as he had repeatedly peace, than urgent petitions for that

pur done ; that it was the mere officious act pose from any very great portion of the of an individual to propose such a negomanufacturing population of this country, ciation, I for one shall chearfully support and therefore, sir, I would earnestly depre- his majesty's ministers in their refusal to cate such petitions. But if every oppor

entertain such an overture. But if it shall tunity of negociation is rejected, and wars appear that those ministers have rejected are to be continued only for the gratifi- a fair opportunity to negociate, I shall not cation of those who delight in carnage

be hesitate to express my reprobation of their cause they batten upon the spoils, and conduct. For, unless they can make out grow rich by the calamities of others, some fair intelligible cause to continue then it becomes the duty of the people to the war, and shew they have not let slip petition for peace, and of the house to attend any fair opportunity for negociation, to the prayers of the industrious but starv no human power shall extract from me ing manufacturers, and to urge his ma the least sanction to their conduct.jesty's ministers to a negociation. By the In every former period this contest way, sir, I am rather surprised that a right there was at least some ostensible cause, hon. friend of mine, his majesty's prin- some plausible pretence on the part of his cipal secretary for foreign affairs, whose majesty's ministers for prolonging hosplace, so ably filled, is become now al tilities. At one time it was to resist jacobimost a sinecure, has not endeavoured to nical principles: at another it was to supcommence a negociation for peace through port the cause of religion and social order, some medium or other, if it were only to then it was to effect the opening of the find something to do for his amusement. Scheld, afterwards, it became a war for the What I would now ask the right hon. gent. defence of our allies; a motive now of little is, whether there has not been lately a import, as my right hon. friend, the fovery favourable opportunity afforded him reign secretary will attest, since his time for that purpose ? I have good authority begins to hang so heavily on his hands, for stating that this opportunity was of- and all his foreign concerns and diplomatic fered under the mediation of Austria, missions are reduced to the solitary busithrough the medium of count Stahrem ness of sending his ambassadors-errant to berg; and I must say, that if any offer look after the emigrant monarchy of Porwas made for negociation by Bonaparte, tugal. At another time it was a war for and that he did propose count Stahrem the restoration of the Bourbons; an obberg as the medium, it was the strongest ject which has ended in excluding them proof of his sincerity in that purpose, be- from every part of continental Europe as cause the known partiality of count Stah well as France, and leaving them no other remberg for this country was a sufficient asylum on earth but England: then it beearnest that this nobleman would not have came a war to obtain indemnity for the consented to become the instrument of a past and security for the future, and to negociation founded on principles hostile meet this object Ceylon and Trinidad to the honour or the interests of Great were to be ceded to us by France; and lastly, Britain. · If this was the case, however we were at war because we would not averse I

may be to encourage premature make peace separately from our ally the petitions, urged as they might be by the emperor of Russia, a consideration from temporary pressure of war upon the ma- which, whether fortunately or unfortunufacturing interests of the country, I could nately, we are at last relieved ; and, not withhold the most decided reprehen- I now defy his majesty's ministers to sion to those ministers who, rejecting the name any object for continuing the conwishes of the country, prefer the advice of test that would not be just as good an arthose who are friendly to the continuance gument for eternal war.-But, unless miof a war now without any objects for the nisters can shew the people of this couninterests of this country. "I fear, sir, this try why the war is continued, and identify fact can be proved against his majesty's their interests with the contest, you canministers. But if the right hon. gent. can not keep back petitioners from stating shew that count Stahremberg has in this their misfortunes, and urging you to overaffair acted for himself, and not in con tures for a peace.—There is another point, sequence of any authority from Bona- sir, on which I differ from poble and rt. hon.

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friends of mine, who now sit near me ; his pone that salutary line of conduct, who, in
majesty's late chancellor of the exchequer the present state of the world, look to Ire-
for England, the late chancellor for Ireland, land as every thing; to Europe as nothing
and a right hon. gent. late secretary for to this country? A great Roman orator,
the war department, who say they wish to speaking of eloquence, has said that to the
give his majesty's ministers further time, perfection of that art, the first considera-
and not to press the matter forward too tion is action, the second, action, and the
early, in hopes of hearing something on third, action. To his majesty's ministers,
the subject from those ministers; I allude, sir, I would seriously urge that to the se-
sir, to the state of Ireland. On this subject, curity of this empire amidst the perils that
sir, from what I know of their views, their surround us, their first consideration should
habits, and inveterate prejudices, I am not be Ireland, their second, Ireland, and their
disposed to give his majesty's ministers so third, Ireland; for convinced I am, as
much as a single week's credit for their in- every thinking man in the country must
tentions, or to believe that the subject has be, that the loss of Ireland would entail
given them the trouble of a day's conside- irretrievable perdition on the British em-
ration. When, towards the close of the pire,
last session, I proposed to bring forward Mr. Montague Malthew expressed, in
this subject, and appoint a committee to strong terms, his mistrust of a set of mi-
enquire into the state of Ireland, if his nisters, who had come into office with an
majesty's ministers did not, a right hon. avowed hostility against five million of his
gent. his majesty's chancellor of the ex- majesty's subjects in Ireland, and said,
chequer, assured me, that the subject of Ire- that he hoped in God he should not see
land, the promotion of its interests, and the them in their situations that day six
amelioration of its internal affairs, formed months.—The question was then carried
a ground of anxious consideration and without a division.
earnest solicitude with his majesty's minis-
ters; and that, in the course of the recess, it
would occupy their most earnest attention.
But how have they proved even the sin-

Friday, January 22.
cerity of their professions ? Is the name [MINUTES.] Sir F. Burdett took the
of Ireland even so much as mentioned, or oaths and his seat.-New Writs were or-
the situation of that country the subject dered for the boroughs of Castle Rising,
even of the slightest allusion in the speech Tregony, Tiverton, and Yarmouth, in the
from the throne? I see, laid on your table, room of the hon. C. Bagot, Mr. G. Went-
a return made of the state of glebe lands, worth, the hon. Richard Ryder, and Mr.
ruined churches, and dilapidated par- J.C.Jervoise; the two former of whom had
sonage houses in that country, probably accepted the Stewardship of the Chiltern
with a view to some improvement upon Hundreds ; Mr. Ryder the place of Com-
those points: but do his majesty's minis- missioner of the Treasury; and the latter
ters think this will do? Is their disposition deceased.-Renewed petitions were pre-
to ameliorate Ireland only to be found in sented, complaining of the returns for the
plans for the building glebe houses, the following places, and ordered to be taken
repairing of dilapidated churches, or the into consideration on the days annexed :
increase of protestant charter schools ! Banbury and Saltash, Feb. 2; Chippen-
Means, which instead of removing, will ex- ham, Feb. 4 ; Saltash, and Horsham, Feb.
asperate the feelings, and aggravate the 9; Evesham, Feb. 11; county of Sussex
evils, which it is most desirable to obviate. and Dublin University, Feb. 16; Renfrew-
But, sir, I will keep my pledge with Ire- shire and Nottingham, Feb. 18; Penrhyn,
land, and at no distant day bring forward Feb. 23.-The Chancellor of the Exche-
the grievances of that country to the quer observed, that the house had derived
consideration of this house. I was told at / much convenience from the limitation
the close of last session to demand no which it fixed last session to the time for
pledge, but to trust to ministers during receiving Private Petitions, and bringing in
the recess. Have I any inducement now Bills thereon, as also for receiving Reports
to confide in them further, when they have of such bills. He therefore proposed, that
not condescended even so much as to men a similar regulation should be made in the
tion Ireland in the speech from the throne, present session. It was then ordered, that
as if it was beneath their high and proud no private petition should be received after
notions of vigorous policy? Shall I post-the 26th of Feb.; that no bill should be


Vol. X

brought in thereon after the 28th of hon. the chancellor of the exchequer was March, and that no report of such bill really a man of honour and integrity, and should be received after the 16th of May. that no man could, with justice, venture to

.[The LORDS COMMISSIONERS' Speech.] dispute it. He was certainly convinced, Viscount Hamilton appeared at the bar, that what he had set forth was the real fact, and presented the Report of the committee and that if he were to give up his original to whom the Address voted last night to source of information, some person or perhis majesty was referred. Upon the mo sons would be sacrificed. He gave him tion that the said report be brought up,

full credit for his conduct upon this occaMr. Macdonald said, that he could not sion, and he should conclude by saying to suffer that last stage of the address to pass him, as some gentlemen, on tħe opposite without recording his dissent from its 'sub- side, would never cease to urge objections stance. He could not express approbation against the measures of the existing goof the expedition to Copenhagen, because vernment, ' never mind them, pursue your no grounds had been laid before the house duty, and leave them where you find to justify it. It had been said yesterday, them. that the eyes of Europe were upon the Mr. Hibbert wished, that the speech and British parliament, and it would be unfor- the sentiments of ministers had breathed tunate, therefore, if its first act, by coming more the spirit of peace. He would neither to a blind decision upon this question, despond nor encourage despondency; but should be such as to disgrace it. There we ought to look at the situation of the was not time, he contended, between the country. The doctrine of our independTreaty of Tilsit, and the sailing of admiral ance on commerce was safe and good, so Gambier, for ministers to have received far as it shewed that we had, besides comintelligence of the engagements entered merce, an object worth defending, and the into at that treaty. The armaments and means of defence; but dangerous and to stores collected at Copenhagen, therefore, be reprobated in that house, if it taught were not provided in consequence of such indifference concerning the sources whence engagements. Ministers ought to produce experience proved us to have derived much to the house the information upon which of our wealth and naval power. But, even they had acted'; for if they had received the converts to these new theories ought to it from any of our ministers at the Northern look with satisfaction towards peace, incourts, those gentlemen were now in safety. asmuch as it would enable us to transfer to He regretted that his majesty's speech our rivals whatever portion we pleased of had not held out any prospect of peace ; the evil of our foreign commerce.-Was and he thought it inconsistent that minis - it doubted, whether British commerce was ters should adhere to forms which ob- suffering ? The industrious inhabitants of structed peace, whilst they rejected all Yorkshire would in part answer the quesforms in their attack upon a neutral tior. It had been observed, on very suffination,

cient authority (Mr. Milnes), that their Mr. Fuller said, he did not think it fair Petition did not originate in party spirit. to attack ministers as to the expedition to Surely, it was on that account entitled to Copenhagen. If the same conduct had the more consideration by ministers; it been adopted towards the fleet of Spain, was indeed the natural expression of the upon a former occasion, this country feelings of a laborious and loyal people, would not have had to fight the battle of wrung from them by distress which they Trafalgar, where the gallant Nelson had had endured long and patiently: shew lost his life. He could not blame minis- them a sufficient cause and they will enters for having taken the precaution which dure still more and longer. "No such they had done, but, in his opinion, they cause was explicitly pointed out to them had hardly done enough in not taking in his majesty's speech. Let it be conadvantage of their knowledge of the Tilsit sidered, too, that the war was assuming a negotiations. Call him the Crown Prince, new character of furious inveteracy, not or the half-a-crown Prince, or what you experienced since the times of barbarism. would, it was certainly most absurd to Was it possible that any one in that house say, that he and his confederates should could regard with complacency the privabe believed in every assertion they were

tions and the sacrifices which this new pleased to make, and that not one word mode of warfare must inflict upon all classes coming from our own government should of people, not in these kingdoms only, but be credited. He believed that the right throughout all Europe ? and was it politic

to subject this country, both at home and neither in its origin could plead that neabroad, to the imputation of wantonly and cessity which is paramount to justification, unnecessarily prolonging this universal nor in its accomplishment displayed adscourge ? If we could not now clearly vantage or splendor sufficient to veil, make out our case to be that of defensive however imperfectly, the depravity of its war, must we not at last admit, that we character. The hon. gent. protested continued the contest merely for the against any approbation, to be implied from chance of events, that might enable us at the terms of the address, by those on that some time or other, God knows how or side of the house, of the expedition against when, to treat on terms of more advant- Copenhagen : he considered them as unfetage? But the chances of war should be tered, whenever that and other questions coupled with its inevitable evils in our connected with the address, should come calculations, and it would be politic also to under the distinct consideration of the consider what might be the chances of house. On the subject of peace he earpeace. Did peace present no probabili- nestly besought ministers to reflect that ties either at home or abroad which might an industrious people could only support a better our situation and render us the fit war so protracted and so arduous, under ter to cope with future difficulties? Might the hope of peace; a hope which must be not peace loosen some of those bonds in extinguished, unless ministers should prove which the states of Europe are now en- themselves disposed to peace, upon fair slaved, and lay the foundation of new alli- terms, and open to negotiation for the purances against new encroachments ? or, pose of obtaining it. looking at home to our sister Island, might | Mr. M. A. Taylor should take another not even a few



peace present to opportunity of stating his sentiments on us the opportunity of allaying the discon- the Danish Expedition, and should content tents of Ireland, and of securing for us her himself declaring them in passing, that faithful and hearty support in any new as an Englishman he felt disgraced by it. contest? a support which might render us He had risen only to state what he knew of fearless about the event.-Negotiation had the proceedings in Yorkshire. He had been spoken of as a dangerous experiment, been applied to by very respectable delea situation to be shunned; and the last gates from that county to become the negotiation had been branded as disgrace- chairman of their meeting, but had deful from its length. Whatever disgrace clined, and endeavoured to dissuade them might result from a patient perseverance from their purpose of petitioning for peace. in the attempt to give peace to Europe, He assured them, that such a proceeding this country had at least retired from that would do no good, and might embarrass negotiation with the highest reputation for government in the negociation which he strict honour and inviolable fidelity to en- supposed was then carrying on. To his gagements; a character, which, if it had arguments they had replied, that they been maintained, might have given us the were starving, not only from the effects best title to the confidence of foreign of the war, but of the late Orders in Couna courts, and have fixed a value upon our al- cil. He advised them, instead of petitioning liance : advantages incalculable whenever against the war and the Orders in Council, the occasion may arise for resisting, under to petition for the removal of the king's better auspices, the encroachments of ministers. (Hear! Hear!] He repeated France. It were well if this character that he had given this advice, and he conhad now remained to us ; that we had per- tended that there were men to be found in severed through every stage of this disas- that house, who would conduct the affairs trous contest, taking for our maxim“ Malo of the country with greater honour and me fortunæ peniteat quam Victoriæ pu- more prospect of peace than the present deat," so that at the termination of the ministers. struggle, if we had neither extended our Mr. Eden rose merely for the purpose territories nor our influence in Europe, we of asking for an explanation from minismight yet have boasted that we had not ers upon one point in the speech, which, embraced the principles nor stooped to the according to his construction of it, apmeans of our adversary. This boast,he fear- peared utterly irreconcileable with truth. ed, we now could not make; from all that They had been told, that as soon as the yet appeared, from all that ministers would Treaty of Tilsit had been signed, his masuffer the house to know, we had blemished jesty had been apprized of the design of the integrity of our cause by an act, which the enemy to employ, the Danish fleet.


against this country, and the speech added,, bitants of the 'continent were also comthat it then became the duty of his majesty pletely tired of war. He was convinced to place that fleet out of the reach of the that we might have had peace long ago, enemy. The Treaty of Tilsit had been had effectual means been adopted to obtain signed on the 7th of July, and it was not that great and most desirable object. till the 8th of August that the intelligence Mr. Yorke had intended to say but a of that event had reached this country few words on the present occasion, but Admiral Gambier sailed from England on from the turn which the debate had taken, the 26th of July, and what he wished to and the opinions which had been last night be informed of was, whether ministers had expressed concerning the negotiations at received the intelligence of the Treaty of Tilsit, and particularly by his right hon. Tilsit in sufficient time to allow of the ne friend opposite, (Mr. Bathurst) opinions cessary delay in moving troops to the which he was surprised to hear from that coast, providing transports, embarking, quarter, he had felt it his duty to state &c. previous to the sailing of the expe- his sentiments on this subject. His madition ; that he believed to be impossible : jesty's ministers had declared that shortly the speech from the throne was not to be after the negotiations took place at Tilsit, discussed in that house alone, it would go his majesty had been apprised of the inforth to Europe, and be combated para- tention of the enemy to turn the Danish graph by paragraph, by men who would and Portuguese fleets against this country, not want dexterity in examining its con and that then it became the first duty of tents, and it was therefore the more neces his majesty, as protector of his kingdom, to sary to correct the anachronism, and not prevent those navies from being employed send the speech forth with its own refuta- to aid the designs of the enemy,

His mation. In philosophy, the cause preceded jesty had told them, that he had been apthe effect, here the effect preceded the prized of such intentions of the enemy ;

He desired to know, therefore, and what were they to do, but, as they apwhether ministers had information of the proved of his measures, to assure his masecret articles of the Treaty of Tilsit pre- jesty, that they participated in his regret vious to the sailing of the expedition, or that hostility could not be avoided, whilst whether their information related to any they congratulated him on the success with engagements entered into previous to the which that hostility had been attended ? signing of that treaty?

'It had been said, that sufficient grounds Mr. Pym observed, that it would have had not been stated to justify the measures been proper, before ministers involved but he would ask any man acquainted with us in fresh wars, for them to consider, public business, whether the nature of our whether the cause of them was just. He government was not such, that the governmight approve of their conduct as to the ment could not proceed if it did not often Copenhagen expedition completely, when act upon grounds which could not, consistfurther information was laid before the ently with the interests of the country, be house, but, with only such facts as those made public? Upon this ground he would that had hitherto been stated, he could not give his confidence to government, without possibly acquiesce in that part of the regard to the persons of whom it might be address which implied a tacit acknowledg-composed. Upon the same grounds he ment of the propriety of their proceedings, would have given his confidence to the late and on that account he should wish, that government, though it was known, that he that part of it should be left out. With had not been in the habit of concurring in regard to the question of peace or war, it their measures, if they had made his maj. had been said, that because we had a most declare in his speech, that he had sufficient triumphant navy, and were at war with grounds for the measures they might adopt. all the continent, this was not the hour to Did not every man of common sense know, make peace. For his part, however, he that measures of war were often taken, did really believe, that this was the very when no information could be divulged or moment, above all others, when it was was even received to justify them? The both our interest and our duty to try to difficulty of procuring intelligence in the procure it; it being recollected, that we présent instance, rendered it still more nehad been no less than 15 years engaged in cessary not to expose those sources which an arduous warfare. He was sure that the yet remained to us. He was conscientipeople of this country now ardently longed ously of opinion, that more inconvenifor it, and he believed, too, that the inha- ence had arisen to this country, from im.

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