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nothing would tend more to embarrass his parte; that he was not authorised to sign majesty's ministers, or to defeat them in passports, in a regular way, between this the object of obtaining an advantageous country and France, as he had repeatedly peace, than urgent petitions for that pur- done; that it was the mere officious act pose from any very great portion of the of an individual to propose such a negomanufacturing population of this country, ciation, I for one shall chearfully support and therefore, sir, I would earnestly depre- his majesty's ministers in their refusal to cate such petitions. But if every oppor- entertain such an overture. But if it shall tunity of negociation is rejected, and wars appear that those ministers have rejected are to be continued only for the gratifi- a fair opportunity to negociate, I shall not cation of those who delight in carnage be- hesitate to express my reprobation of their cause they batten upon the spoils, and conduct. For, unless they can make out grow rich by the calamities of others, some fair intelligible cause to continue then it becomes the duty of the people to the war, and shew they have not let slip petition for peace, and of the house to attend any fair opportunity for negociation, to the prayers of the industrious but starv- no human power shall extract from me ing manufacturers, and to urge his ma- the least sanction to their conduct.jesty's ministers to a negociation. By the In every former period of this contest way, sir, I am rather surprised that a right there was at least some ostensible cause, hon. friend of mine, his majesty's prin- some plausible pretence on the part of his cipal secretary for foreign affairs, whose majesty's ministers for prolonging hosplace, so ably filled, is become now al- tilities. At one time it was to resist jacobimost a sinecure, has not endeavoured to nical principles: at another it was to supcommence a negociation for peace through port the cause of religion and social order, some medium or other, if it were only to then it was to effect the opening of the find something to do for his amusement. Scheld, afterwards, it became a war for the What I would now ask the right hon. gent. defence of our allies; a motive now of little is, whether there has not been lately a import, as my right hon. friend, the fovery favourable opportunity afforded him reign secretary will attest, since his time for that purpose? I have good authority begins to hang so heavily on his hands, for stating that this opportunity was of- and all his foreign concerns and diplomatic fered under the mediation of Austria, missions are reduced to the solitary busithrough the medium of count Stahrem- ness of sending his ambassadors-errant to berg; and I must say, that if any offer look after the emigrant monarchy of Porwas made for negociation by Bonaparte, tugal. At another time it was a war for and that he did propose count Stahrem- the restoration of the Bourbons; an obberg as the medium, it was the strongest ject which has ended in excluding them proof of his sincerity in that purpose, be- from every part of continental Europe as cause the known partiality of count Stah-well as France, and leaving them no other remberg for this country was a sufficient earnest that this nobleman would not have consented to become the instrument of a negociation founded on principles hostile to the honour or the interests of Great Britain. If this was the case, however averse I may be to encourage premature petitions, urged as they might be by the temporary pressure of war upon the manufacturing interests of the country, I could not withhold the most decided reprehension to those ministers who, rejecting the wishes of the country, prefer the advice of those who are friendly to the continuance of a war now without any objects for the interests of this country. I fear, sir, this fact can be proved against his majesty's ministers. But if the right hon. gent. can shew that count Stahremberg has in this affair acted for himself, and not in consequence of any authority from Bona

asylum on earth but England: then it became a war to obtain indemnity for the past and security for the future, and to meet this object Ceylon and Trinidad were to be ceded to us by France; and lastly, we were at war because we would not make peace separately from our ally the emperor of Russia, a consideration from which, whether fortunately or unfortunately, we are at last relieved; and, I now defy his majesty's ministers to name any object for continuing the contest that would not be just as good an argument for eternal war.-But, unless ministers can shew the people of this country why the war is continued, and identify their interests with the contest, you cannot keep back petitioners from stating their misfortunes, and urging you to overtures for a peace. There is another point, sir, on which I differ from noble and rt. hon.

Mr. Montague Malthew expressed, in strong terms, his mistrust of a set of ministers, who had come into office with an avowed hostility against five million of his majesty's subjects in Ireland, and said, that he hoped in God he should not see them in their situations that day six months.-The question was then carried without a division.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Friday, January 22.

friends of mine, who now sit near me; his | pone that salutary line of conduct, who, in majesty's late chancellor of the exchequer the present state of the world, look to Irefor England, the late chancellor for Ireland, land as every thing; to Europe as nothing and a right hon. gent. late secretary for to this country? A great Roman orator, the war department, who say they wish to speaking of eloquence, has said that to the give his majesty's ministers further time, perfection of that art, the first consideraand not to press the matter forward too tion is action, the second, action, and the early, in hopes of hearing something on third, action. To his majesty's ministers, the subject from those ministers; I allude, sir, I would seriously urge that to the sesir, to the state of Ireland. On this subject, curity of this empire amidst the perils that sir, from what I know of their views, their surround us, their first consideration should habits, and inveterate prejudices, I am not be Ireland, their second, Ireland, and their disposed to give his majesty's ministers so third, Ireland; for convinced I am, as much as a single week's credit for their in- every thinking man in the country must tentions, or to believe that the subject has be, that the loss of Ireland would entail given them the trouble of a day's conside- irretrievable perdition on the British emration. When, towards the close of the pire. last session, I proposed to bring forward this subject, and appoint a committee to enquire into the state of Ireland, if his majesty's ministers did not, a right hon. gent. his majesty's chancellor of the exchequer, assured me, that the subject of Ireland, the promotion of its interests, and the amelioration of its internal affairs, formed a ground of anxious consideration and earnest solicitude with his majesty's ministers; and that, in the course of the recess, it would occupy their most earnest attention. But how have they proved even the sincerity of their professions? Is the name of Ireland even so much as mentioned, or the situation of that country the subject even of the slightest allusion in the speech from the throne? I see, laid on your table, a return made of the state of glebe lands, ruined churches, and dilapidated parsonage houses in that country, probably with a view to some improvement upon those points: but do his majesty's ministers think this will do? Is their disposition to ameliorate Ireland only to be found in plans for the building glebe houses, the repairing of dilapidated churches, or the increase of protestant charter schools! Means, which instead of removing, will exasperate the feelings, and aggravate the evils, which it is most desirable to obviate. But, sir, I will keep my pledge with Ireland, and at no distant day bring forward the grievances of that country to the consideration of this house. I was told at the close of last session to demand no pledge, but to trust to ministers during the recess. Have I any inducement now to confide in them further, when they have not condescended even so much as to mention Ireland in the speech from the throne, as if it was beneath their high and proud notions of vigorous policy? Shall I postVOL. X.

[MINUTES.] Sir F. Burdett took the oaths and his seat.-New Writs were ordered for the boroughs of Castle Rising, Tregony, Tiverton, and Yarmouth, in the room of the hon. C. Bagot, Mr. G. Wentworth, the hon. Richard Ryder, and Mr. J.C.Jervoise; the two former of whom had accepted the Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds; Mr. Ryder the place of Commissioner of the Treasury; and the latter deceased.-Renewed petitions were presented, complaining of the returns for the following places, and ordered to be taken into consideration on the days annexed: Banbury and Saltash, Feb. 2; Chippenham, Feb. 4; Saltash, and Horsham, Feb. 9; Evesham, Feb. 11; county of Sussex and Dublin University, Feb. 16; Renfrewshire and Nottingham, Feb. 18; Penrhyn, Feb. 23.-The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that the house had derived much convenience from the limitation which it fixed last session to the time for receiving Private Petitions, and bringing in Bills thereon, as also for receiving Reports of such bills. He therefore proposed, that a similar regulation should be made in the present session. It was then ordered, that no private petition should be received after the 26th of Feb.; that no bill should be G

brought in thereon after the 28th of |
March, and that no report of such bill
should be received after the 16th of May.
[THE LORDS COMMISSIONERS' SPEECH.]
Viscount Hamilton appeared at the bar,
and presented the Report of the committee
to whom the Address voted last night to
his majesty was referred. Upon the mo-
tion that the said report be brought up,

hon. the chancellor of the exchequer was really a man of honour and integrity, and that no man could, with justice, venture to dispute it. He was certainly convinced, that what he had set forth was the real fact, and that if he were to give up his original source of information, some person or persons would be sacrificed. He gave him full credit for his conduct upon this occasion, and he should conclude by saying to him, as some gentlemen, on the opposite side, would never cease to urge objections against the measures of the existing government, never mind them, pursue your duty, and leave them where you find them.'

Mr. Macdonald said, that he could not suffer that last stage of the address to pass without recording his dissent from its substance. He could not express approbation of the expedition to Copenhagen, because no grounds had been laid before the house to justify it. It had been said yesterday, that the eyes of Europe were upon the Mr. Hibbert wished, that the speech and British parliament, and it would be unfor- the sentiments of ministers had breathed tunate, therefore, if its first act, by coming more the spirit of peace. He would neither to a blind decision upon this question, despond nor encourage despondency; but should be such as to disgrace it. There we ought to look at the situation of the was not time, he contended, between the country. The doctrine of our independTreaty of Tilsit, and the sailing of admiral ance on commerce was safe and good, so Gambier, for ministers to have received far as it shewed that we had, besides comintelligence of the engagements entered merce, an object worth defending, and the into at that treaty. The armaments and means of defence; but dangerous and to stores collected at Copenhagen, therefore, be reprobated in that house, if it taught were not provided in consequence of such indifference concerning the sources whence engagements. Ministers ought to produce experience proved us to have derived much to the house the information upon which of our wealth and naval power. But, even they had acted; for if they had received the converts to these new theories ought to it from any of our ministers at the Northern look with satisfaction towards peace, incourts, those gentlemen were now in safety. asmuch as it would enable us to transfer to He regretted that his majesty's speech our rivals whatever portion we pleased of had not held out any prospect of peace; the evil of our foreign commerce.—Was and he thought it inconsistent that minis-it doubted, whether British commerce was ters should adhere to forms which obstructed peace, whilst they rejected all forms in their attack upon a neutral nation.

Mr. Fuller said, he did not think it fair to attack ministers as to the expedition to Copenhagen. If the same conduct had been adopted towards the fleet of Spain, upon a former occasion, this country would not have had to fight the battle of Trafalgar, where the gallant Nelson had lost his life. He could not blame ministers for having taken the precaution which they had done, but, in his opinion, they had hardly done enough in not taking advantage of their knowledge of the Tilsit negotiations. Call him the Crown Prince, or the half-a-crown Prince, or what you would, it was certainly most absurd to say, that he and his confederates should be believed in every assertion they were pleased to make, and that not one word coming from our own government should be credited. He believed that the right

suffering? The industrious inhabitants of Yorkshire would in part answer the question. It had been observed, on very sufficient authority (Mr. Milnes), that their Petition did not originate in party spirit. Surely, it was on that account entitled to the more consideration by ministers; it was indeed the natural expression of the feelings of a laborious and loyal people, wrung from them by distress which they had endured long and patiently: shew them a sufficient cause and they will endure still more and longer. No such cause was explicitly pointed out to them in his majesty's speech. Let it be considered, too, that the war was assuming a new character of furious inveteracy, not experienced since the times of barbarism. Was it possible that any one in that house could regard with complacency the privations and the sacrifices which this new mode of warfare must inflict upon all classes of people, not in these kingdoms only, but throughout all Europe? and was it politic

neither in its origin could plead that necessity which is paramount to justification, nor in its accomplishment displayed advantage or splendor sufficient to veil, however imperfectly, the depravity of its character. The hon. gent. protested against any approbation,to be implied from the terms of the address, by those on that side of the house, of the expedition against Copenhagen: he considered them as unfettered, whenever that and other questions connected with the address, should come under the distinct consideration of the house. On the subject of peace he earnestly besought ministers to reflect that an industrious people could only support a

the hope of peace; a hope which must be extinguished, unless ministers should prove themselves disposed to peace, upon fair terms, and open to negotiation for the purpose of obtaining it.

to subject this country, both at home and abroad, to the imputation of wantonly and unnecessarily prolonging this universal scourge? If we could not now clearly make out our case to be that of defensive war, must we not at last admit, that we continued the contest merely for the chance of events, that might enable us at some time or other, God knows how or when, to treat on terms of more advantage? But the chances of war should be coupled with its inevitable evils in our calculations, and it would be politic also to consider what might be the chances of peace. Did peace present no probabilities either at home or abroad which might better our situation and render us the fit-war so protracted and so arduous, under ter to cope with future difficulties? Might Hot peace loosen some of those bonds in which the states of Europe are now enslaved, and lay the foundation of new alliances against new encroachments? or, looking at home to our sister Island, might not even a few years of peace present to us the opportunity of allaying the discontents of Ireland, and of securing for us her faithful and hearty support in any new contest? a support which might render us fearless about the event.-Negotiation had been spoken of as a dangerous experiment, a situation to be shunned; and the last negotiation had been branded as disgraceful from its length. Whatever disgrace might result from a patient perseverance in the attempt to give peace to Europe, this country had at least retired from that negotiation with the highest reputation for strict honour and inviolable fidelity to engagements; a character, which, if it had been maintained, might have given us the best title to the confidence of foreign courts, and have fixed a value upon our alliance advantages incalculable whenever the occasion may arise for resisting, under better auspices, the encroachments of France. It were well if this character had now remained to us; that we had persevered through every stage of this disastrous contest, taking for our maxim" Malo me fortunæ pœniteat quam Victoriæ pudeat," so that at the termination of the struggle, if we had neither extended our territories nor our influence in Europe, we might yet have boasted that we had not embraced the principles nor stooped to the means of our adversary. This boast,he feared, we now could not make; from all that yet appeared, from all that ministers would suffer the house to know, we had blemished the integrity of our cause by an act, which

Mr. M. A. Taylor should take another opportunity of stating his sentiments on the Danish Expedition, and should content himself declaring them in passing, that as an Englishman he felt disgraced by it. He had risen only to state what he knew of the proceedings in Yorkshire. He had been applied to by very respectable delegates from that county to become the chairman of their meeting, but had declined, and endeavoured to dissuade them from their purpose of petitioning for peace. He assured them, that such a proceeding would do no good, and might embarrass government in the negociation which he supposed was then carrying on. To his arguments they had replied, that they were starving, not only from the effects of the war, but of the late Orders in Council. He advised them, instead of petitioning against the war and the Orders in Council, to petition for the removal of the king's ministers. [Hear! Hear!] He repeated that he had given this advice, and he contended that there were men to be found in that house, who would conduct the affairs of the country with greater honour and more prospect of peace than the present ministers.

Mr. Eden rose merely for the purpose of asking for an explanation from minisers upon one point in the speech, which, according to his construction of it, appeared utterly irreconcileable with truth. They had been told, that as soon as the Treaty of Tilsit had been signed, his majesty had been apprized of the design of the enemy to employ the Danish fleet

|

bitants of the 'continent were also completely tired of war. He was convinced that we might have had peace long ago, had effectual means been adopted to obtain that great and most desirable object.

against this country, and the speech added, that it then became the duty of his majesty to place that fleet out of the reach of the enemy. The Treaty of Tilsit had been signed on the 7th of July, and it was not till the 8th of August that the intelligence of that event had reached this country. Admiral Gambier sailed from England on the 26th of July, and what he wished to be informed of was, whether ministers had received the intelligence of the Treaty of Tilsit in sufficient time to allow of the necessary delay in moving troops to the coast, providing transports, embarking, &c. previous to the sailing of the expedition; that he believed to be impossible: the speech from the throne was not to be discussed in that house alone, it would go forth to Europe, and be combated paragraph by paragraph, by men who would not want dexterity in examining its contents, and it was therefore the more necessary to correct the anachronism, and not send the speech forth with its own refutation. In philosophy, the cause preceded the effect, here the effect preceded the cause. He desired to know, therefore, whether ministers had information of the secret articles of the Treaty of Tilsit pre-jesty, that they participated in his regret vious to the sailing of the expedition, or whether their information related to any engagements entered into previous to the signing of that treaty?

Mr. Yorke had intended to say but a few words on the present occasion, but from the turn which the debate had taken, and the opinions which had been last night expressed concerning the negotiations at Tilsit, and particularly by his right hon. friend opposite, (Mr. Bathurst) opinions. which he was surprised to hear from that quarter, he had felt it his duty to state his sentiments on this subject. His majesty's ministers had declared, that shortly after the negotiations took place at Tilsit, his majesty had been apprised of the intention of the enemy to turn the Danish and Portuguese fleets against this country, and that then it became the first duty of his majesty, as protector of his kingdom, to prevent those navies from being employed to aid the designs of the enemy. His majesty had told them, that he had been apprized of such intentions of the enemy; and what were they to do, but, as they approved of his measures, to assure his ma

that hostility could not be avoided, whilst they congratulated him on the success with which that hostility had been attended? It had been said, that sufficient grounds Mr. Pym observed, that it would have had not been stated to justify the measure been proper, before ministers involved but he would ask any man acquainted with us in fresh wars, for them to consider, public business, whether the nature of our whether the cause of them was just. He government was not such, that the governmight approve of their conduct as to the ment could not proceed if it did not often Copenhagen expedition completely, when act upon grounds which could not, consistfurther information was laid before the ently with the interests of the country, be house, but, with only such facts as those made public? Upon this ground he would that had hitherto been stated, he could not give his confidence to government, without possibly acquiesce in that part of the regard to the persons of whom it might be address which implied a tacit acknowledg-composed. Upon the same grounds he ment of the propriety of their proceedings, would have given his confidence to the late and on that account he should wish, that government, though it was known, that he that part of it should be left out. With had not been in the habit of concurring in regard to the question of peace or war, it their measures, if they had made his maj. had been said, that because we had a most declare in his speech, that he had sufficient triumphant navy, and were at war with grounds for the measures they might adopt. all the continent, this was not the hour to Did not every man of common sense know, make peace. For his part, however, he that measures of war were often taken, did really believe, that this was the very when no information could be divulged or moment, above all others, when it was was even received to justify them? The both our interest and our duty to try to difficulty of procuring intelligence in the procure it; it being recollected, that we present instance, rendered it still more nehad been no less than 15 years engaged in cessary not to expose those sources which an arduous warfare. He was sure that the yet remained to us. He was conscientipeople of this country now ardently longed ously of opinion, that more inconvenifor it, and he believed, too, that the inha-ence had arisen to this country, from im

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