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provident grants of information, and from
the government being so urgently pressed
for the production of papers, than from
any other cause.. This he would assert
without reference to any set of men:
‹ Nullius addictus jurare in verba magistri.'
He was old enough to remember the Ame-
rican war, and he could state from oppor-
tunities which he had of personally know-
ing the fact, that in consequence of the
production of the papers relative to the
sailing of the Toulon fleet, on the motion
of a gentleman of very high talents, now
no more, (Mr. Fox) the French had been
enabled to cut off a source of intelligence,
which this country had possessed in Hol-
land since the reign of queen Anne. Was
there not enough on the face of such
papers, to enable the enemy to trace the
source whence they might have been re-
ceived? He would give credit to govern-
ment for having received the intelligence.
On that fact he would rest his foot, and
give his approbation to the measure. Ad-
mitting, then, the fact, that such arrange-
ments were formed as had been stated, the
next question was, whether we were justifia-
ble in following them up with an attack upon
Denmark; and this, he asserted, did not ad-
mit of doubt. He shrewdly suspected, that
there had been a great deal of collusion for
a considerable time, between the ministers
of Denmark, for of the Crown Prince he
wished to speak with the respect due to
his rank, more especially as he was nearly
allied to our own most gracious sovereign.
But setting this presumption altogether
aside, he contended, that the existence of
so powerful a fleet in the hands of so
weak a power was itself a sufficient jus-
tification of the measures of precaution
which had been adopted. Deprecating
the repetition of such discussions as they
had heard, of the principles of abstract
right, more worthy of schoolboys than of
statesmen and legislators, and upon which
the philosophers of the continent so much
insisted, while at the same time they shew-
ed themselves so insensible to the principles
of wrong, he declared that, as an impartial
inan, sitting upon the great process of his
country, he would bring in his verdict
not guilty. The circumstance of the
Danish army being assembled in Holstein
at the time the attack was made on Zea-
land, he thought might have been con-
trived in order to preserve appearances,
and to disguise their future intentions, and
he could very well account for the surprize
of their government on seeing the island of

| Zealand surrounded so rapidly and unex-
expectedly with a naval and military ar-
mament, from the tardiness which they
had been accustomed to witness in our
former expeditions. At any rate, their
avowed inability to defend themselves
against the power of Russia some years
ago, when on that very account they went
to war with this country, was a satisfac-
tory proof that they could not do it now
against the combined powers of Russia and
France; and it would hardly be maintained,
that we ought to have sat quietly still and
seen them marshalled among our enemies.
It was not to be forgotten too, that a ne-
gociation preceded hostilities, and that they
had the option of delivering up their fleet in
deposit, or of going to war with this coun-
try. The great moral maxim of "Do as
you would be done by" was equally ap-
plicable to nations and to individuals, and
he had no hesitation in saying that, had
he been a Dane, he would not have felt
his honour compromised in acceding to the
alternative offered by the British govern-
ment.-Upon the other prominent topic
in the speech, he declared it as his firm
opinion, that there was no probability of
obtaining from the present government of
France, any terms of peace compatible
with the honour and security of this coun-
try; of this he had been convinced ever
since the Treaty of Amiens, which he had
supported merely by way of experiment.
But after the experience we had of the dis-
positions of the enemy, in the short inter-
val of hostilities, he was persuaded, that on
the day on which peace should be signed,
our real dangers would commence.
the same time, he thought, that no oppor-
tunity ought to be omitted of negociation,
were it merely for the purpose of inform-
ing the people, who knew but little of the
political interests of the country, of what
we were fighting for. He advised minis-
ters, however, in any negociation, to take
a high ground, and that of the most perfect
equality. At present, he sincerely depre-
cated all petitioning on the part of the peo-
ple, because it could do no good, and would
only tend to embarrass government and
embolden the enemy.

At

Mr. Windham expressed a wish, that he could agree with the right hon. gent. on all the topics of his speech, as much as he did on that with which he concluded. He deprecated as much as the right hon. gent. all petitions for peace, and for the same reason, because they could do no good, and might be productive of much mischief.

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Peace no doubt was in itself desirable, and it was not to be supposed that any government could be insensible to the motives of those who were most desirous of it, even though they were expressed much less strongly than in the petitions that might come before the house. He was prepared, however, even to go farther than the right hon. gent. and to declare his opinion, that honour in any peace which should now be concluded, might be considered as totally out of the question. Safety now was all that we need look for, and this was all that he would ask :

quired such a proficiency as to make it in vain for us to attempt now to contend with him. Whatever hopes the hon. gentlemen might entertain of themselves in that respect, he was afraid they would find the country very unhandy and indocile, and too stiff in its old habits of honesty and fair dealing to follow them with any advantage. We were past the age of learning. It was much better for us to stick to our old principles, and to resolve that if it was our fate to die, we should at least die with honour. With respect to the refusal on the part of ministers of declaring the grounds on which they formed their opinion, it had never been disputed that government might receive information, which it would be in the highest degree improper for them to publish. But then a question arose, whether in such cases they ought or ought not to act upon their information? This in some cases might be decided in the affirmative, and in others not. He suspected, however, that in the case in question, instead of preparing troops for an expedition, they had prepared the expedition for the troops. Finding that they had got money in their pockets, they resolved on spending it. They did not know what to do with the army which they had collected, and after some reflection, they said, "God bless us, let us go and attack the Danish fleet." He did not, however, mean now to enter into a discussion of the merits of the question, and his only object in rising was to reprobate the new system of morality which was so assiduously propagated, and which, if propagated with success, would prove a lasting injury to the world.

"Now give kind dullness, memory and rhyme, We'll put off genius till another time." Could peace be made on terms that would put the country into any reasonable state of safety, he for one was willing "to put off honour till another time." He was sorry that on the other topics which the right hon. gent. had introduced into his speech, he was under the necessity of widely differing with him. He had laid down certain doctrines of generality which he was persuaded were very different indeed from the practice of the right hon. gentleman, and which, from the industry and eagerness with which they were diffused, formed, in his opinion, one of the most alarming features of the present times. It really seemed as if we had arrived at a new epoch of the world, and as if we were about to adopt a system directly the reverse of that which had been hitherto acted upon. The right hon. gent. appeared to treat anciently received principles with as little ceremony as any revolutionary French Committee had ever done, and to take leave of them with telling us, that all these old-fashioned doctrines are changed and exploded. He would still, however, venture to profess an attachment to the old maxim, of honesty being the best policy; a maxim which was just as true when applied to the conduct of nations as of individuals. Nor did he think it sufficient merely to profess it; it was equally essential to act upon it. But an Mr. Wm. Smith, after touching lightly open and public renunciation of this prin- on the Copenhagen business, commended ciple was an alarming symptom indeed, the conduct of the noble lord who was and infinitely more fatal to the cause of member for Yorkshire, in discountenancing public morals than many practical devia-petitions for peace. He would have acted tions from it. It was a state of most hopeless depravity, when people began to adapt their theory to their practice. He advised ministers to stop short in this new career; for he assured them, that they could cut but a poor figure when compared with the enemy, who, from long practice, had ac

Mr. Matthew Montague vindicated the conduct of Ministers in withholding the information of which they professed to be in possession, upon the constitutional provision, which, by granting to the king the prerogative of declaring war, necessarily declared him the sole judge of the grounds on which he ought to go to war.

in the same manner if a petition had been proposed in the city he had the honour to represent, though the interests of the inhabitants of that city suffered as much as the interests of any other part of the community, by the continuance of the war. This he would do, in the confidence that

his majesty's ministers would omit no opportunity of restoring peace. If he should find that any fair opportunity was neglected, then he would encourage the petitions, with a view to compel ministers to negociate.

Mr. Secretary Canning, in answer to a question put by an hon. gent. over the way (Mr. Eden) admitted, that though lord Gambier had sailed from the Downs on the 26th of July, ministers had not received the intelligence of the signing of the Treaty of Tilsit before the 8th of Aug. following. Ministers had not said that they had in their possession any one secret article of the Treaty of Tilsit, but that the substance of such secret articles had been confidentially communicated to his majesty's government, and that such communication had been made a long time previous to the date alluded to by the hon. gent.: as to the inference attempted to be drawn from the advanced state of preparation in which the armament was placed prior to the Treaty of Tilsit, it was notorious, that that armament was then equipping for an entirely distinct object, till the secret intelligence had been received, which made it the duty of ministers to employ that armament in the service in which it had been so successfully engaged.

Mr. Whitbread was sure that the words of the Declaration against Russia went to rest the justification of the expedition to Copenhagen on the secret articles of the Treaty of Tilsit, though his hon. friend had clearly made out a gross anachronism in attributing the expedition, that set out on the 26th of July, to the effect of a treaty that was not known in this country till the 8th day of the subsequent month. But the right hon. secretary had now confessed that ministers had not in their possession the secret articles, but that they had the substance of those articles. Here he would ask one question, why not state that substance to the house and to the country? for the argument under which ministers tried last night to entrench themselves, namely, that the very fact of communication would disclose the source of it, could not at all apply now; for there was no necessity to give this substance to the house with any reference whatever to the source from whence they had derived it; they could easily state that substance generally, without any mark of designation. Aright hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke), had thrown out a doctrine on the topic of public and

national morality, from which he entirely dissented, and he was sure, that had that right hon. gent. been a Dane, he would have shed the last drop of his blood sooner than have surrendered the fag end of a cotton rope to England, required in the manner in which the late demand had been made to Denmark. As to peace, he wished that petitions would crowd from all parts of the empire, and multiply upon the table, unless ministers would satisfy the country of their willingness to enter into a negociation on secure and honourable terms; which he believed were to be had now as readily as at any other period of the war. But there was one thing had fallen from the right hon. gent. to which he must advert: with regard to the tender, the option, as it was called, that was made to the Danes-that if they gave us their fleet, we would defend them from the French; how! we defend them; who were not able, after seizing their fleet, to keep possession of Zealand for one winter! The Danes must now see, that had they been mean enough to have acceded to our proposals, we could not have fulfilled our stipulations, and that, therefore, we were determined either to rob or to defraud them. He did think that ministers were bound, as they regarded their own honour, but much more as they regarded the honour of the country, till their time unstained, to give to parliament and to the world, the fullest and the most complete information as to the pretended mystery that led to an attack on a neutral and independent people, unprovoked (apparently at least), and certainly unprecedented in the annals of this country. The right hon. gent. had deprecated this call for papers and information, and thought it injurious to the public service. He could only say, that he believed the great cause of many of the evils with which this country had been afflicted, was owing to the system that had prevailed too generally for the last 15 years, of holding back from the public the papers and documents which had been, upon almost every important occasion, vainly moved for in that house. He should conclude with repeating his conviction, that ministers had never received, either in substance or in form, the secret information which they alleged they had received, and to which they had attributed that fatal and disgraceful expedition. The Address was then read and agreed to, and ordered to be presented to his majesty by such members as are of the privy council.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Monday, January 25.

been carried. He understood, that in granting such licences to some particular individuals, and refusing them to others, much abuse had arisen, contrary to the true meaning and intent of the legislature ; he thought, therefore, that information upon this subject would be necessary and proper at any time to be laid before the house, but more particularly at a period when such an extensive system of blockade had been adopted, and so many Orders of Council issued upon this subject.

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[MINUTES.] Lord Stopford reported to the house, that his majesty, having been attended with their Address of Friday last, was pleased to receive the same very graciously, and to give the following Answer: "Gentlemen; I return you my most cordial thanks for this dutiful Address. The just sense you entertain of the measures which the extraordinary and critical state of affairs compelled me to adopt [OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL.] Mr. for averting from my kingdom the great Bankes having previously moved, "That and additional dangers with which it was the entry in the Journal of the house of threatened, gives me great satisfaction, and the 10th of August, in the last session of is a fresh proof of your loyal determi- parliament, of the Address agreed to by nation to support the honour of my crown, this house to be presented to his majesty, and the rights and essential interests of my requesting that his majesty would be grapeople." The following Election Petitionsciously pleased not to grant any Office, were presented, and ordered to be taken Place, Employment, or Salary, in any part into consideration on the days respectively of his majesty's dominions, in reversion, annexed: Great Grimsby, Thursday, or for joint lives, with benefit of survivorFeb. 23; Downpatrick, Feb. 25; New-ship, until six weeks after the commencecastle under Line, March 1; Great Yar- ment of the present session of parliament,' mouth; March 1; Grampound, March 3; might be read, proceeded to move for Stirling, March 24; Wexford, two peti- leave to bring in a Bill, to prevent the tions, March 8; New Malton, March 8; granting of Offices in Reversion. He said, Malmsbury, March 10.-Mr. Sheridan that towards the close of the last session, gave notice, that he should on Monday he had had the honour of proposing to the se'nnight move for a committee to inquire house a measure of this nature, which into the State of Ireland. He said, he did then received the unanimous sanction of not bring on this measure with any party the whole house; and it was therefore unviews or party feelings, nor with any in- necessary for him to take up their time in tention whatever to embarrass his majesty's making observations upon the necessity of ministers neither was it his object, that such a measure, as he was confident the the committee should take into their con- house had no reason to depart from that sideration any thing respecting the griev-resolution; and he trusted, that no obsta ances suffered by the people of Ireland on account of religious distinctions, or, in other words, the Catholic Claims, as he understood that question was in other hands. The propositions he had to bring forward he, therefore, hoped would meet the unanimous concurrence of that house. If however, in consequence of the absence of several members belonging to that part of the united kingdom, who might wish to declare their sentiments upon the subject, it might be thought adviseable to postpone his notice, he should have no objection to do so. Mr. Horner rose to postpone his motion respecting the granting of Licences to persons engaged in foreign trade, until Thursday. Mr. Rose begged to ask the object of the hon. gent.'s motion. Mr. Horner replied, that his object was to ascertain to what extent the practice of granting Licences by the privy council to persons engaged in foreign trade had

cles would be thrown in the way of that which, in the strictest sense, was the bill of that house. Unless some unanswerable. reasons could be brought forward, he hoped the house would maintain the work of their own hands. It might have been sufficient for him to put the house in possession of the subject, merely recommending it to them to persevere in what they had already considered a useful measure; but lest there should be any suspicion that it was intended by this measure to encroach upon the prerogative of the crown, he wished to show that it did not in any manner trench upon that preroga. tive. What was sought, was not to restrain the power of the crown in the appoint ment of persons to lucrative offices, but merely to suspend such appointment till a vacancy should occur, in order that an op portunity might be given of appointing the fittest person, as it was a well known

this kind, whether the grant was direct or reversionary. The line he took on this occasion might not be popular, but he would do his duty. When the abolition and reformation of offices, and the limitation of the prerogative of the crown with respect to them, were talked of, he could not help recollecting the instance of a distinguished character in that house, he meant the late Mr. Burke, who had been most active in the early part of his political career in reforming and abolishing offices, and in limiting the prerogative of the crown, and who lived to lament and condemn all those reforms, abolitions, and limitations. He again insisted on the power of the house over the acts of its committees, and recommended the preservation of the prerogative of the crown, which was the foundation of the privileges of the house itself.

fact, that by granting offices in reversion, persons had been appointed wholly unfit for such situations. On these grounds, he thought this a fit bill to pass at any time, but more particularly under the present circumstances of the country. It was well known that a committee of enquiry into certain measures of economy had been going on during the two last sessions of parliament, and was still continuing, by whom many offices of emolument, but with no duty to perform, might be entirely suppressed; but the existence of offices in reversion would, in some cases, have the effect of putting off, to a great length of time, the execution of any recommendation proceeding from that committee. This, which had formerly been urged as an objection against the present measure, was, with them, a ground on which he might chiefly rely in urging its expediency. He did not conceive, however, that there could be any occasion to trouble the house further upon a motion which formerly passed with its unanimous concurrence. He should only express his hope for the same degree of unanimity in regard to the bill he should now propose, and would conclude with moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to prohibit the granting of Offices in Reversion, or for joint lives, with benefit of survi-peared to overreach that power which vorship."

Mr. Whitbread could not suffer the observations of the right hon. gent. who had just spoken, to pass without animadverting upon them. The single reason which the right hon. gent. had advanced for his opposition to this measure was, that it encroached upon the prerogative of the crown; but he considered it one of the. peculiar privileges of that house to watch over the prerogative of the crown, and to curb and moderate it, where it ap

was vested in it; but the right hon. gent. Mr. W. Dundas felt himself called upon was certainly right in voting against this to state his distinct opposition to the mea- bill, for if he was not very much mistaken, sure proposed. It was not the custom of that right hon. gent. was himself in posparliament to pass in a subsequent session session of an office granted to him in rewhat it had agreed to as a matter of course version. It was the peculiar duty of that in a preceding session. The discretion of house, by the address which was voted in every member remained open to correct the last session of parliament, to take this itself on reflection. Much less was it to measure into their most serious considerbe regarded as a matter of course that the ation. The proposed measure did not go house was bound to agree in every res- to take away from the crown the power of pect, and to coincide in every recommen- appointing persons to offices of emolument, dation of the committees it appointed. but merely to suspend the power of apEvery thing was to be considered and re-pointment to places which had been imconsidered as often as it came before the house, upon the fair view of the arguments that should appear for and against it. He opposed the present measure on the broad ground of its invading the inherent prerogative of the crown, not merely by suspending, but by taking away and destroying its right of granting certain offices according to established usage. He did not think there was much solidity in the argument, that grants in reversion were liable to be exercised in favour of improper persons. The advisers of the crown were always responsible for any impropriety of VOL. X.

properly exercised. In many instances, appointments were granted to persons while they were mere infants, and wholly incapable of executing the functions of them. This, then, was certainly an improper use of the prerogative. He believed the right hon. chancellor of the exchequer himself was an instance of this, having been appointed to a lucrative office while a minor; nay, even while he was an infant. The same place was now held in reversion by the right hon. gent.'s brother, a member of the upper house (lord Arden); and that grant was certainly made when

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