lawyers had really made such an impression, that Ld. Grey himself did not know how to act.

How can people be so little wise, though nursed in the experience of party!

Hill then talked of family and historical pictures, which he understands, perhaps, better than party politics.

Returning from riding in the Park, I joined the Chancellor, who was walking home after the House. He asked me what people thought; and hoped they at least gave him credit for impartiality in the conduct of the trial. I told him (as I could truly) what satisfied him on that point. He then talked of the Attorney and Solicitor's speeches; said they had made the greatest impression, and he expected a majority of from from forty-five to fifty. But I don't tell you, he added, what will happen afterwards, for nobody can tell. As for Ld. Ellenborough's Resolutions of Censure, he said, perhaps the Duke of Wellington had told me his (the Chancellor's) opinion, that they could not be entertained; for what had the House of Lds. to do with Resolutions of Censure, distinct from a legislative measure? Of course he must be right, but I saw not the difference between the two Houses in this respect. I congratulated him upon his health, notwithstanding his fatigue. He said, he was pretty well, for a man in his seventyfirst year, but professed he was tired, and desired nothing so much as to retire, which he would do as

soon as possible, after this affair was over. I asked who there was to replace him? He said that was not his business. I wished to pursue the conversation, which he seemed willing to do, notwithstanding I was on horseback he on foot; but, recollecting this, I felt forced to take my leave. Never was there a man of more urbanity and less ceremony.

November 2nd, 1820.-Called upon Pole. He was at breakfast, and we had a long chat. He thought every thing very bad - Ministers, Opposition, King, Queen, country, and what was more, no prospect of getting right all ties were loosened. Insolence and insubordination out of doors, weakness and wickedness within. The Whigs, he said, were already half Radicals, and would be entirely so, if we did not give way. I said his brother, the Duke, felt this too, but would not give way, nevertheless. He replied, that the issue would soon be tried, for the Queen's question must determine it, and asked how I calculated it would be? I said, I could not hope for a majority of more than thirty, so many friends of Government were against us on the policy, though they had no doubt of the guilt.

Pole said, they put the majority higher than I did, and talked of fifty at the least. I observed, a large majority would puzzle them more than a small one, as it would perhaps force them to go through with the Bill and send it to our House. This he deprecated as well as I, and inclined to an honourable mezzo termine, if it could be found. I told him what the

Chancellor had said upon Ld. Ellenborough's motion, which surprised him. Coming to names, he would scarcely believe that Lds.

*

and convinced, as they professed to be, of the Queen's guilt, could vote against the Bill.

Still he thought the Chancellor must by this time know the House, and Ld. Liverpool perhaps still better, and they put the majority higher. I doubted Ld. Liverpool's knowledge of the House, thinking that that and the general power of governing by a party was what he failed in. He is too honest, I said, to take pains this way. No man can lead the House or the Cabinet so well; on all subjects every one looks up to him in debate; but he trusts too much to this, and takes his account of minor, yet necessary, points from others. Pole said he agreed with me as to his coldness and inattention (he does not love him), but he thought him better acquainted with trifling occurrences than I did. There is hardly a thing said or done, hardly a conversation, or even a joke, that is not carried to him. I should not be surprised, added Pole, if he knows that we are conversing together at this moment.

I told him I thought he attributed more management to Ld. L. than he was disposed even to think of; that his mind was too much in his office and in the H. of Lds., and too little attentive to anything else. As a manager of public opinion, as a mean of Government, it was what we accused him of.

Pole, however, disagreed. Reverting to our immediate subject, he said there was to be a Cabinet that night, but he saw no middle measure to get rid of the Bill. When I talked of it, said he, I reasoned this way: No one can expect that a Ministry can be immortal, there must be some question by which they must stand or fall; this is, perhaps, the most important measure we ever had, we knew what it was when we embraced it, and we must go through. He agreed with me that if the second reading was carried it would be a complete defence of Ministers, and he would then be indifferent about the third, which, if lost, he thought Parliament would be prorogued, which would get rid of the immediate proceeding, but then there would be a violent attack to sustain at the next meeting, and meantime there would be addresses against us from all parts of the country, and asked my opinion. told him that as to addresses they had lost all their force, and as a mode of expressing the real public opinion had become even ridiculous. They were carried by force, by the introduction of mobs and people who were not what the titles of the addresses called them; that the majority of people staid at home from fear of turbulence, so that it had now become a contest between meetings usurping a corporate name and the opinions of individuals. We were not bound literally or morally to consider

I

* Well would it be for all political parties, if such manly and enlarged views were acted on by successive administrations.

such addresses, under leaders, whether Whigs or Radicals, whose arts and sometimes whose downright falsehoods were well known; that the House would be much more formidable, indeed, after all, the only thing that was formidable, but with a verdict of Guilty, which the second reading must amount to, I did not fear it. I thought the country gen. tlemen would stand by us; Creevy, Bennet, and the Radicals might mouth, and the Whigs might support them, but these latter never gained one inch of ground, and we should triumph as we had done before. The great thing I feared was the King. The King, to use his expression, was merry as a grig. At first he had been annoyed, but was now enjoying himself at Brighton; he wished he would show himself more.* What he feared, however, in the House was a motion to restore her name to the Liturgy, in case the Bill did not pass the Lds.; I said they had been beaten upon this before, and the Queen herself had waived it for an equivalent, but even an equivalent, if she was pronounced guilty, no fair man, I thought, would insist upon. then fell upon Brougham and Canning.

was as

We

On leaving Pole I met Hammond, my quondam colleague, when we were Under-secretaries of State together. He told me it was certain Ld. Grenville would support the Bill, and then asked me, with

*Note by Mr. Ward.-There might be another fear of him, as he knew we would not imitate Opposition if we were out of office.