Finance corrected. I have made no alteration that is not verbal. I have marked some parts which I think ought not to be printed. Ever yours, &c., WELLINGTON. [ 864.] [ENCLOSURE.] EVIDENCE OF FIELD MARSHAL HIS GRACE THE DUKE OF HOUSE OF COMMONS. 15th April, 1828. Select Committee on Public Income and Expenditure. Martis 15° die Aprilis, 1828. Sir Henry Parnell, Bart., in the chair. (Copy from Mr. Gurney's Shorthand Notes.) His Grace the Duke of Wellington attending by permission of the House of Lords, was examined as follows: Question. The Committee having received evidence on the proposed Canals and Military Works for the defence of Canada, and on the estimates of the expense to be incurred in making them, are desirous to have the opinion of your Grace upon the necessity and efficiency of that plan of defence for securing the Canadas against successful invasion. Answer. I delivered my opinion in a letter to which, on reflection, I adhere entirely. Question. There is a reference in your Grace's letter to works on the Niagara Frontier to which no particular reference was made in the evidence of Sir Henry Hardinge. Answer.-The Board of Ordnance have divided the works into three classes, the first of which consists of those that they consider necessary without delay. I think it would be desirable to have the work on the Niagara Frontier, though not inserted, in the first class. There were during the late war two forts on the river Niagara itself, one upon each of the lakes; and there was likewise an American fort, of which the British troops were in possession, on the right side of the Fall. I am quite convinced it would be very desirable to have the work on that frontier to support the operations of the troops. My opinion originally was, when I looked at this question, that it would be very desirable to have a work there; and my opinion was confirmed by the report of the engineers. Question. The Committee are desirous of knowing the opinion of your Grace how far these works would, if completed, put it in the power of this country to abandon the defences by the lakes. Answer. The view I had originally formed, on information which I collected from reading a variety of books on the late war, and also the reports of Sir Edward Owen on the inland communication by water in those countries was, that there might be a communication from the Great River to Kingston; that from Kingston it was possible to form a communication to Pentengashene, through what is called the Nin Lake, and Simcoe's Lake; and that from that communication by water, it was possible to communicate with Lake Erie, with Lake Huron likewise by water. Thus the land and the naval means of defence might be concentrated wherever the Commander-inChief of the operations might think fit. He would thus be at all times master of the seat of operations of the war. The Committee of Engineers went out and examined, as far as their time would allow them, into the details of this plan. They were not able to receive, during the time they were there, sufficient information to enable them to decide satisfactorily respecting that part of the inland navigation above Kingston; and I cannot say that when I quitted the Ordnance that information had been entirely satisfactory. I had received one report from certain officers of the Engineers, which induced me to believe that the plan is practicable, and that at no very great expense it can be completely carried into execution; that is, an actual communication by water can be carried into effect the whole way to Pentengashene; and, indeed, those reports confirm the information which I had before acquired by perusing Sir Edward Owen's reports, who knows more on that particular part of the subject than any other person. If these communications can be established, there is no doubt whatever that the naval operations on the lakes might be either abandoned altogether, or might be carried on with every prospect of advantage. If those communications cannot be established, I should say it will be absolutely necessary to endeavour to retain a force on the lakes, in order to communicate with the Niagara frontier and the scene of operations of the troops in that quarter. The question is, whether the Canadas are to be defended: if they are to be defended, I am sure something of this sort must be done. Question. Has your Grace anything to suggest on the subject of the Militia Laws to render them more efficient? Answer. That would lead into a considerable detail. Question. Supposing that no works were undertaken, except those of the first class, which are declared to be important and absolutely necessary, and that a war were to break out with the United States, what must be the plan of defence for the whole of the country above Kingston, including nearly the whole of the Upper Province ? Answer. I should think that what they must do immediately must be to arm the fleet now in Kingston harbour. They have a considerable number of ships there in a certain state of preparation. They must immediately assemble a force at Burlington Heights, and look to the defence of the Niagara frontier. I mean supposing the works, in the first class only, carried into execution. But I confess that if I were to choose between some of those I see in the first class, and those put into the second class, I should infinitely prefer not to have the works at Montreal, however important Montreal is; and to have it upon the Niagara frontier. I think the last the most important, more particularly as there is a work on the Island of St. Helens, and one at the mouth of the Chatanghar River. I should infinitely prefer a fort on the Niagara frontier in the first instance to having it at Montreal. It will be very important to have a good work behind the Welland Canal. I dare say when they come to consider the plans, this notion will be adopted. Question.-Would one work be sufficient to defend the Niagara frontier? Answer. The way in which I view this work, which should be of a considerable strength, would be as a support to the troops that might be left for the defence of the frontier; and in order to prevent the enemy from advancing further than that particular work, I would remove it some distance, in order to render the attack of it more difficult. Question.-Does your Grace remember the number of miles that frontier extends that you would contemplate defending by that work? Answer. I do not suppose that this work would prevent straggling parties from entering the country. This work would give cover and protection to so large a body of men, as that the enemy could not venture to pass them with large numbers until the work was got the better of. I think the country would be safer with the Militia that would be collected under the protection of the work until an army could be brought to its relief. Question. What force should your Grace consider necessary to garrison that defence if assailed? Answer. In time of war 1500 men, probably. Question.-Does your Grace think, in the system of warfare that would be carried on, the Americans, if they had hostile intentions, would be stopped by any fortress of that kind? Would they not take possession of the country, leaving the garrison behind? Answer. The fortress and its garrison of 1500 men would give protection, I apprehend, to more than that number. I can only speak from an experience of what happened in the late war. I do not think any body of men ever penetrated any distance into the country. I should say not more than five-andtwenty miles, excepting one corps, which fought with General Procter at Moravian Town, and that corps, although successful, was obliged to retire immediately after the action, on account of the great difficulty of subsisting in the country. Under these circumstances, I should say that a work of this kind, at the expense of 280,000l., if well supplied, as it ought to be, would prevent any considerable body of men advancing beyond it. Question. Your Grace would be more disposed to put that work into the first class of works than the proposed work at Montreal? Answer. I would certainly-more particularly as the means are to be provided of protecting the stores in the Island of St. Helens. Question. What force would your Grace contemplate as necessary to defend that country, supposing all the works which have been stated completed, canals and all? Answer. I always reckoned that it could be defended with about as many men as there were there during the late war. If I rightly recollect, there were 10,000 men-10,000 King's regular troops-that is of course besides the militia to be found in different parts of the country. Question.-Does your Grace think that that force, divided, as it necessarily must be, in an extent of so many hundred miles, would not be in greater danger of being surrounded by the power of the United States, than if they concentrated their forces in any given point of that line, so as to interrupt and stop the communication? Answer. I am supposing all is done which I contemplate. I think in that case the person who commanded those troops would act very improperly if he ever exposed too small a force, and not strong enough to hold an enemy in check. I am supposing the war to be defensive, which is what I have always contemplated. Question. How far is it to be considered that the actual possession of Canada is absolutely necessary for the successful defence of the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick? Could they be successfully defended supposing Canada not to be in possession of Great Britain? Answer.-I think not. Question. Then the abandonment of Canada would necessarily involve the abandonment of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick? Answer. I should say that considering their situation, in my opinion, the abandonment of Canada would occasion the loss of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Question. Supposing that Canada were not in the possession of the United States, and still not in the possession of Great Britain, what is your Grace's opinion? Answer. The question then would be whether it would be in the possession of a friendly Power, or otherwise. I always considered that the first outlay upon this water communication would complete all the rest. My notion was, after this first canal should be completed, to sell it under certain arrangements for securing the command of it to his Majesty for the purposes of his service; keeping it in repair under the inspection of the officers of his Majesty's government; and having sold this canal, to do that which was necessary further with the produce of the sale in carrying the water communications as far as we might find it expedient for his Majesty's service. Question.-Your Grace has been asked whether the province of New Brunswick could be defended if Canada were in possession of the United States. Is there any fortification, or any means by which the Americans might not now penetrate through the province of Maine, and take possession of New Brunswick? Answer. I believe the communication from the province of Maine into New Brunswick is very difficult; that country is very little settled, and the difficulties would be great. Question. What assistance could, in your Grace's opinion, be rendered from Quebec or the Upper Provinces in case an hostile force was invading New Brunswick by the Province of Maine? Answer. I have never contemplated the possibility of an attack from the United States on that point; but in a case of that sort there are means of carrying on a temporary offensive |