very great waste of time and money is made, which better habits of concrete analysis would have corrected. We go through spasmodic public excitements often, which are only spasmodic. Not so very long ago, the whole railway world was astir over the merits of the " broad gauge" railroad track, and trunk lines like the Erie and others, must have six and (■even-feet gauges. Some years after, the same fever ran to a three and-a-half feet gauge; and it is only lately that common sense has brought our general railway system into standard gauge, and even this, the pedagogues of the profession, are continually tampering with.

The question of cost of steam power, in itself, and as developed by different classes of engines adopted, or now being adopted, is here carefully analyzed in its proper commercial condition. Steam power, we see here, means something more than a boiler, a cylinder and a line of shafting. It means not only boiler plant and cort, with all the accessories; not only engine plant and attachment; engine house, chimney, and appurtenances; coal supply, combustion rate, and cost.; but other conditions are important. There are daily operation as to running time; relative engine friction; pressure economy; feed water temperature, evaporation, spare pipes and valves; repair, depreciation, supplies; interest on construction and plant; inspection, insurance, taxes, dividends, surplus power and like conditions, which enter into the general problem of use and cost, and are here carefully analyzed and tabulated.

As to these analyses, their basis of arrangement is so clearly explained that special corrections for special cases can readily be applied

As, in my own expert practice, I have frequently been required to demonstrate the economy, fitness, and special value of water power, if I should venture any opinion on the valuable analysis here made, of comparative steam and water power, it would be to say only this:

That it is quite certain that water falls and flows to the sea, by gravity, much more cheaply than coal can be mined, and is likely to outlast coal; that water power plant is far less expensive, as a rule, than that of steam, and its daily care much less expensive; that at the centres of such power, Lowell, Lawrence, Holyoke, Cohoes, etc., their common annual rental of about $20 per H. r. (ordinary mill day), has induced the most elaborate outlay of capital, and resulted in very remunerative income.

I think, therefore, that on general analysis, water power does not cost as much as steam. While it must be admitted that very expensive reservoirs and other structures, as at Lowell and Lawrence, aggregate what Dr. Emery's analysis shows; yet at Lowell the Central Pacific mill prefers in low runs to pay $60 per H. p. for surplus water, to using its own steam plant; that for somewhat large consumption of special power, $3.00 per week is a common steam power price at Lowell, Boston, New York and other places.

The es imated cost of development on tlie Hydraulic Tunnel of Niagara is about $2,238,750 for a capacity of 119,000 a. p., or about $10.50 per H. P., for slopewalls, cribs, races and gates, and tunnel. The rates, as published, are for 5,000 H. P. or over, $10 per H. p. per year; 4,500 H. P , $10.50; 4,000 H. P., $11, down to 300 H. P., $21. On the old Hydraulic Canal, powers have been leased as low as $4 for 600 to 1,000 H. P., and $5.30 for 250 to 300 H. p. Sucli leases are, of course, improperly cheap, as are, in fact, the general rates of the new tunnel.

On the Kennebec River, Maine, I found a working power, at Carritunk Falls, under 2S feet fall, of about 7,000 H. P. This river, on its upper basins, lias remarkable natural reservoirs of about 229 square miles, with about six feet available storage, in a main basin of 2,860 square miles. A main dam of 80 feet controls the flow, and nature has singularly formed the races and wheel pit; so that the cost of these items is much less than that of Niagara.

In cases like this, then, the superior economy of water power must be conceded; and in pulp mills, as at Carritunk, the largo quantity of water needed is also an important item of cost.

These, however, are not criticisms on the elaborate and most valuable paper of Dr. Emery; they furnish modified conditions of use, which no engineer will apprehend and appreciate more thoroughly than he.

Thk Pkksidknt :—I notice that Mr. McElroy in his interesting remarks has omitted mention of a rather well-known water power near by, and that is the Housatonic. My attention was called to it a short time ago, and although I have forgotten what the rates given were, my impression is that the price there, is considerably higher than those just given in other instances.

Mr. Mcelroy:—I am not able to say definitely as to that. Of course there are other cases. The company at Paterson, for instance, charges very much more. Their rates are more than double.

The President :—Ts Mr. Holloway of the Mechanical Engineers present?

Mr. J. F. Holloway :—Mr. Chairman, I had no expectation of saving anything to-night, but I read with pleasure the paper which Dr. Emery has prepared, and I wish to say that I agree heartily with my friend, Mr. McElroy, in the complimentary remarks he made about the paper. The paper is one that will be of great value to mechanical, as well as electrical engineers. It is evidently the result of a great deal of study and care on the part of the author, and in its result it is to some extent surprising; and yet after all, it coincides very closely with ideas that I have had all of my life—that this is a world of compensation; that we do not get all the good things in one place, without having to take some other things that are not quite so good.

Ths results he shows are as bstween the more common, and the highly refined engines, and the ultimate results that are shown in his paper, are not so widely different, and that will be, I think, a matter of some surprise to many, until they investigate the matter in the direction and to the extent in which Dr. Emery has investigated it. The common idea is, that to get the best results, you must get the most refined mechanism, and considerable money is often spent in that direction without knowing how much in other respects, the total value of the saving is brought down to the results obtained by the plainer and more common machines.

Referring to the water power question, I know very little wbout that, except that it occurs to me that it is hardly a fair comparison that Dr. Emery has made between the steam engine and water power, in the location which he has selected. I think it would have been better to have said that he had made the comparison with a place where there wonld be a good water power if there was water. If you go to all the expense of arranging tor using water, and then half the year you do not have water, of course that must add largely to the ultimate cost of water power.

Prof. John H. Barr :—I came down here this afternoon to hear the third reading of this paper. 1 had the privilege a short time ago of hearing a dress rehearsal of it, and read it today on the cars. I hope this, however, is not the final reading as it is one of the things that grows on me. I thank you for the privilege of taking part in this discussion, though Dr. Emery has left little to discuss. The previous gentlemen have expressed their appreciation of this valuable paper to the engineering profession, in which I wish to concur.

I noticed a reference to the condition of affairs at the Calumet and Hecla Mines. My first engineering experience was gained at the Calumet and Hecla Mine, and, while I was there in a subordinate capacity and perhaps not entirely competent to judge of things, I think it quite probable, if not certain, that the conditions have by this time been so modified, that a different policy might be pursued with economy, so far as distribution of power is concerned. The great work done at Calumet by Dr. Leavitt, is of the highest interest to engineers, and if he has kept his eve rather constantly on columns c and/'of the table given in this paper, it can be said that few men have done as much with a pound of coal as he.

The Falls of St. Anthony is cited as an exceptional case where nature has greatly favored the locality in water power; and while its water power had a very important influence in the development of the city located near it, I doubt if its present influence is as great as most people think. I believe that steam mills at other places can now compete on very fair terms with the mills on the water power at St. Anthony. The supply of water is so variable that all the more important mills have to have large steam plants— steam plants sufficient to practically run the entire mill. The interest, and all costs except running expenses, go on for this part of the plant, whether the mill is run by steam or water. The cost for labor also is largely maintained whether run by steam or water, because the engineers have to be employed throughout the year in order to have them when needed. The value of land and high taxation, or rent, puts these mills at a disadvantage, largely compensating the gain due to running by water part of the time.

Mr. C. (). Viaii.loux:—In using engines for electrical station purposes, the tendency of modern practice, even with slow speed engines is to do away with the jack-sliaft and to use the power either by belting from the engine direct or by attaching the armature direct to the shaft. Hence ia a large number of cases the power of the engine will all be utilized excepting a very small percentage necessary for its own friction; and one need not, therefore, allow ten per cent, more for loss in jack-shaft or other intermediate transmission. This, of course has a direct bearing on the initial cost of the engine and the cost of maintenance, and indirectly upon the total cost of power per annum.

In regard to the utilization of water power when used to generate electricity to transmit to a distance, there is one factor that appears to me to be of importance, as affecting the question whether a given transmission scheme is financially practicable or not. I refer to accessory macbinery and apparatus, particularly that needed for regulation and control, the importance and the cost of which I think is often underrated if not neglected, in making estimates on the cost of machinery necessary to utilize the energy of water power by transmission to distant points. I met a party some time ago who is operating an electric railroad by water power, and was not particularly happy over it, even though the power cost him but little. He said the principal trouble was in the great flunctuation of pressure, the voltage varying from 300 to 600. If several cars happened to start, or to be going up grade at the same time, the voltage would come down to 300, but if some of the curs stopped, the dynamo would raise the E. u. F. up to 600 or more. I asked myself, while thinking over this case, what would be the result when transmitting 5,o00 horsepower electrically, from a generator driven by a turbine, supposing the load was suddenly and totally relieved by the circuit being opened through a main fuse blowing out, or a break in the wire, or supposing it were suddenly thrown on, without giving time for the governor to act; or again suppose the load were constantly fluctuating as it does on most railroad circuits. It occurred to me that something would happen of interest to science, and possibly the coroner also. We can hardly have fly wheels sufficiently large to take care of these fluctuations, as they must be of enormous size. Calculations show just what would "have to be their weight and proportions to prevent any serious variation of speed, when the whole load is thus thrown on or off. There are to day many places where available and cheap water power is unused for the sole reason that no efficacious and satisfactory regulation lias been found to compass the fluctuations of load occurring on railway and power circuits. At Oswego they use a resistance, so that when the load is thrown off from the working circuit it is thrown on an idle resistance, which is not a very economical means of handling the difficulty, to say nothing of its cost. Hence, even assuming that we can overcome all other difficulties, of a financial or engineering character, in connection with a transmission scheme, we must put into our estimate a very liberal allowance for accessories, to enable us to secxire a successful transmission and control of the energy, and leave the energy at the other end where it has to be utilized, in such form that it can be used as successfully and as satisfactorily to the customer as the electricity obtained from a central station operated by steam.

I have always found the principal difficulty of electrical transmission projects to be, to dispose of the electrical energy after it is transmitted, and especially to distribute it, or deliver it to the consumer in a satisfactory manner.

Prof. Forbes :—I would say that in the case of the Niagara transmission that question has been thoroughly threshed out and we have got a fly-wheel, not at all gigantic in comparison with the revolving armature, which completely takes care of that. In two seconds tlie regulator will have acted and the fly wheel will have taken care of it up to that time.

The President :—I think in the larger plants where live or six thousand horse power units are used, there will be less difficulty possibly than is anticipated, because as a mle where transmitting from a single 6ource of such large units to distributed work tor stationary purposes, there is a certain averaging up of the duty which will prevent such sharp variations of the load as have been indicated, and hence I do not think there will be so much difficulty on the large water power transmissions; still, these variations have to be guarded again.-t, arid it is more difficult to meet them in a water plant than in a steam plant.

If any other gentlemen wish to discuss the paper we will be glad to hear from them. Possibly some remarks may be prepaied by members subsequent to this meeting; if so, I shall try to have them received at the next regular meeting, or they can be presented to the Editing Committee. Dr. Emery will reply to some of the comments which have been made.

Dr. Emery :—I can only say that I feel very much gratified with the complimentary remarks that have been made in regard to the paper and I lie way in which it has been appreciated by those present. It is unfortunate that the paper is so long that few have had time to study all the points in their different bearings and relations to each other, and I am quite sorry that one whom we esteem so highly as Prof. Forbes should have received.