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on the Paper at the very beginning of the Session. The complaint was that so extremely brief an interval was allowed between their appearance on the Paper and their proposed discussion, and that so little time was given for the preparation of Amendments. If they were driven to discuss the Chancellor of the Exchequer's propositions now, many Amendments would have to be considered which were not in print, and the scope of which they could not, therefore, fairly appreciate. What the Chancellor of the Exchequer had done had the appearance of taking the House by surprise, although he acquitted him of the intention of doing so. To allow time for Amendments, he urged there should be delay.

time had come for the appointment of a Committee, and last year it was appointed. On the 24th of January last year his right hon. Friend moved for the appointment of a Committee, and the House agreed to it without a dissentient voice. A good deal of consideration was given as to the Gentlemen who should be selected, and on the 25th of February his right hon. Friend nominated the Members of the Committee. They sat from the 5th of April to the 5th of July, on the 6th they agreed to their Report, and the Report was presented to the House on the 8th of July. Seven months had since then elapsed, during which hon. Members had had plenty of opportunities for considering the Report; and if they were not now prepared to make up their MR. NEWDEGATE: Sir, I would minds with reference to the subject, he humbly represent to hon. Members that would be glad to know when they would there is no real foundation for the allebe ready to give an opinion upon it? gation that the proposals made by the It appeared to him one of the most un- Government have taken the House by reasonable requests that could be made surprise. At the commencement of the to ask for further time for consideration. Session before Christmas, I immediately He urged the House, if it intended to put it to the right hon. Gentleman the do any Business this Session, to consider Chancellor of the Exchequer that if the the Resolutions which the Chancellor of House believed with its Committee that the Exchequer called on them to take it had not the time for its Business, that in hand. It was not now the first week it lacked means for facilitating the Busiof February, but the third. On Thurs-ness of the House, it was most desirable day next the Government would intro- that the alteration of its Rules should duce the new Military Code, which be considered, and, if approved, adopted must be passed by the 25th of April. He at the commencement of the Session. would ask, therefore, whether there was This is no new subject. Having heard any time to be lost? from the then Leader of the House,

MR. BENTINCK said, the hon. Mem-in 1875, that he was unwilling to saneber for Chelsea had attributed to him the remark that when both front Benches above the Gangway agreed upon any thing they were sure to be wrong. That was a somewhat sweeping remark, and he did not recollect having made it. But if, on the present occasion, the two front Benches concurred in approving the Resolutions that were about to be submitted to the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was quite prepared to accept the responsibility of the observation which the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea had attributed to him. The objections to proceeding with the discussion of the Resolutions were so strong that he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would yield to the appeal which had been made to him.

MR. ANDERSON said, there was no complaint against the Chancellor of the

tion the appointment of a Committee on the Public Business of the House, I proposed a Resolution upon this subject, on the 19th of February, 1875, now four years ago. Hon. Members will admit that this subject has been before them ever since. The circumstances, the history of the Sessions of 1876 and 1877, or of that of the early part of last Session, cannot have passed from their recollection; and though I admit, with the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry), that one duty of the House is to represent the feelings of the people, I ask the House to remember that the progress of Public Business has been impeded during the last three Sessions. By proposing these Resolutions, the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer is only redeeming the pledge he gave when the House met

his promise at a time when it must expedient. He was, therefore, inclined be obvious to every hon. Member-who to look favourably, on the whole, on can recollect, as I do, former discussions proposals which would impose some reand the adoption of Amendments in the strictions on those facilities; although Rules of the House-that it is essential when the Resolutions were brought forto discuss and, if approved of, to adopt ward he might have occasion to say a the Amendments of these Rules, for the few words as to one or two points in proper conduct of Public Business, early which, in his opinion, they stood in in the Session. I am perfectly aware need of amendment. But he, at all that some of these proposals appear to events, thought that in discussing Resofetter the action of the non-official Mem- lutions of such importance the utmost bers of the House. There is no hon. latitude and freedom should be allowed Member of the House who has shown to every hon. Member; while the object greater dislike to coercion of this kind which the Chancellor of the Exchequer than I have; but I cannot conceal from had in view would, he believed, be famyself that the course of legislation cilitated by bringing them forward in has been to centralize local administra- Committee of the Whole House. tion largely in the hands of Her Majesty's Ministers. The control of almost every branch of that which was formerly considered local administration-such as that of Prisons and Education has been placed in the hands of the Government. Upon this Her Majesty's Ministers found a claim for more of the time of this House. I think it is politic to give Her Majesty's Ministers more of our time, because otherwise the House could exercise no control over these spheres of administration which have been recently placed in the hands of the Government. No one would regret more than I do that any hon. Member should be taken by surprise; but I do humbly submit that there are strong grounds for proceeding in this matter early in the Session.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that if the object of the hon. Member for Chelsea and those by whom he was supported was to put off altogether the discussion of the Resolutions, the course which they had taken was perfectly intelligible, and one upon which it would be desirable to test the feeling of the House. If, however, they and the great majority of the House were of opinion that some alteration was required in the mode of conducting its Business, then the only question was whether the present was a convenient time for taking the discussion? Now, for his own part, he ventured to think that the House would lose all chance of being able definitely to discuss the Resolutions if it allowed the opportunity which offered itself that evening to pass. MR. WALTER suggested that the The House had hardly begun-had Chancellor of the Exchequer might meet hardly yet got into the full play of its many of the difficulties which were felt legislative work; and there was, thereby several hon. Members on both sides fore, an opportunity that evening of disof the House if he would consent to have cussing a question which was of great the Resolutions considered in Committee interest and of importance in relation of the Whole House. It would other- to the transaction of the whole Business wise, he believed, be impossible to dis- of the House. He ventured to say that cuss them with that freedom which was Members were quite as competent to necessary in dealing with proposals of proceed with the consideration of the such a nature. He made the sugges- question at the present time as they tion, he might add, with less hesitation, would be a fortnight hence. The Rebecause his experience in that House solutions were not of a startling characled him to arrive at a conclusion some- ter. If they had not been considered what different from some of his hon. before there would have been some reaFriends who sat on the Benches opposite son in saying that time was required for with regard to the merits of the Reso- the purpose of studying and mastering lutions. He was one of those who was dis- them; but when Members observed what posed to think that the facilities which at the Resolutions really were, they would present existed for occasioning delay and find that there was only one that could obstructing the passing not only of Go-be said to be at all of a novel character. vernment measures, but Bills of every description, were greater than was at all

And with regard to that particular Resolution, there would be no wish on the

second that if hon. Members were prepared to take into consideration any alteration in the Rules and Forms of

should be done at the earliest possible moment, so that the Resolutions might be dealt with on their own merits, and should not be introduced in the middle of the Session, when it might be urged that they had been brought forward with reference to some particular circumstances. The first, he might add, and the most important of the Resolutions, related to Committee of Supply, and as Notice had been given that Committee of Supply would be taken on Monday next-and it was impossible to blame the Government for seeking to enter on that important portion of the Business before them as soon as possible

part of the Government to press it forward unduly; but with respect to the first, second, and third Resolutions, if they had not been before them in pre-procedure it was desirable that that cisely the same words, they had, at all events, been several times before them in an analogous form. They had, therefore, not only had a knowledge of their character and bearing, but they had had a certain amount of experience of how proposals of the kind before them were worked. The question had been considered time after time; so that it was inconsistent with the recollection of the House for any Member to say that the House was taken by surprise by their introduction now. He altogether disclaimed the sort of idea which seemed to be entertained by several Members to the effect that there was an antagonism between the Government and the House-it was, in his opinion, most desirable in the matter, and that the Government were the natural enemies of the Opposition and wished to gain an advantage over them. That was not a fair suggestion to make against the Government. They were interested-as the whole House were interested-in getting the SIR JOSEPH M KENNA urged the Business of the House properly con- advantages of having the Resolutions ducted with economy of time, and in a discussed in Committee, since it was demanner most convenient to the Mem-termined to proceed at once with the bers. It was with the view of getting the Business so conducted that the Resolutions before them had been brought forward, containing, as they did, the best suggestions they could think of with that view; but, of course, it was open to any Member to make suggestions by way of Amendment upon them. They were perfectly able to discuss them as they stood; and he could see no advantage in going into Committee of the Whole House upon them.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, he was not sure, after the opinion which had been expressed as to the result of the concurrence of those who sat on the two front Benches, that he would do much service in rising to support the course proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He must, however, say that, ingenious though the arguments of the hon. Member for Chelsea and others might be, they seemed to him to be outweighed by one or two practical considerations. The first was that the House had absolutely nothing else to do that evening, and a large number of Members were prepared to enter into the discussion of the subject; and the

that any alteration made in that respect should be made before next week. These practical considerations appeared to him to be of greater importance than the arguments which had been urged in favour of delay.

consideration of them. In a discussion such as that which now engaged the House, where verbal Amendments constituted the chief Business, it would be almost impossible to understand the reasons for using particular words, if one were not to have the latitude of inquiry and explanation consistent with the Rules of a Committee, but not so with the Rules of Debate in the House.

MR. GORST urged the same point, as otherwise it would be a case of Hobson's choice. The House must either accept the new Rules or rest content with those already in force.

MR. SYNAN complained that the course taken by the Government would deprive the House of the opportunity of considering Amendments on these Resolutions, and hoped the Government would yet agree to consider them in Committee. In a week's time they would be better able to give their opinion on the points raised by them.

MR. ONSLOW reminded the House that the Report of the Select Committee on Public Business was dated July 8, and that the Resolutions now before the House were a portion of those recom

mended by the Committee. He was not himself in favour of the Resolutions; but he could not contend that the House had been taken by surprise. He should oppose every one of them except the 5th and 6th. For himself, he thought that they required no further facilities for legislation; and that if the Government passed a Mutiny Bill and a Criminal Code Bill, besides the discussions that would take place on financial subjects, they would have done very well. He thought the Resolutions should be considered in Committee.

MR. RYLANDS said, he must confess he was somewhat disappointed at the remarks of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He could quite understand that the Government was determined to pass these Resolutions in their entirety; but if the Government were inclined to give the House a full and sufficient opportunity of considering the Resolutions-not with the alternative of accepting or rejecting them, but with the opportunity, it might be, of making improvements in them-then he must say he was disappointed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not fallen in with the suggestion of his hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke), that the House should resolve itself into a Committee upon the Resolutions. He rose for the purpose of submitting a formal Notice to the House, as an Amendment to the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer

"That this House will forthwith resolve

itself into a Committee to consider the Resolutions of Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer on

the Business of the House."

He even yet entertained the hope that the right hon. Gentleman would favourably consider the Amendment. Of course, it was quite true that the hon. Member for Chelsea would be willing to throw the Resolutions over entirely, and he dared say there were other hon. Gentlemen who were of the same opinion. He hoped that those hon. Gentlemen would not hesitate to vote for going into Committee; because it would be quite open to them-or to others who thought that due time had not been given for the consideration of the Resolutions--to move at once to report Progress. But the point which struck him as one of considerable difficulty in reading the Blue Book, which they all seemed to have been doing yesterday,

was this-He found himself placed in considerable difficulty from the fact that throughout the Blue Book references were made to important suggestions which were put before the Committee, but with which he was entirely unfamiliar. The hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Beresford Hope) was fully alive to the whole question, having sat upon the Committee; and he (Mr. Rylands) was quite sure that no man could sit upon a Committee of that kind with greater advantage. Well, that hon. Gentleman was, of course, fully acquainted with the recommendations which were made by the noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington) and other influential Members of the Committee, and which were printed for the use of Members, and which were referred to continually in the examination of witnesses, but which were not in the possession of the House. Now, he ventured to submit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the other Members of the Committee that it would hardly be fair to ask those outside the Committee, who were anxious to come to a deliberate and reasonable conclusion upon these recommendations, to decide without placing them in the position of having the full information which was in the hands of the Committee. He said, further, that he believed it would be most unfortunate if the House were to proceed with this Business to-night, unless they went into Committee, because otherwise they would not have a full opportunity of discussing the points which might be brought before them. He was not very sure whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having moved the postponement of the Orders of the Day, might not be called to Order for subsequently making a speech, on the technical objection that he ought not to speak twice. [Cries of "No!"] He observed that the right hon. Gentleman shook his head, intimating that he was not out of Order; but, nevertheless, there was no Amendment before the House when he made his speech. Of course, they would none of them object to a speech from the right hon. Gentleman. They were only too happy to hear him on the question, and the very arguments in favour of a Committee was that, while first one suggestion and then another might be made, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be able

to guide the House, by speaking as often as might be found necessary. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not further oppose the Amendment. He would certainly carry it to a division; because he thought it only right that the House, by resolving itself into Committee, should deal with the Resolutions in a manner which was likely to secure their full and proper discussion. The hon. Member concluded by formally moving his Amendment.

MR. DILLWYN seconded the Amendment. He observed that the House should be very careful how it voted these proposals of the Government, which tampered with the rights of private Members, and which they had had no time to consider.

Amendment proposed,

To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House will forthwith resolve itself into a Committee to consider the Resolutions of Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer on the Business of the House,"-(Mr. Rylands,) -instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. A. MILLS pointed out that they would be merely wasting time by proceeding with the discussion of the preliminary question. The very fact that four Amendments to the Resolutions had been put upon the Notice Paper was a proof that the matter was no surprise, but had been well considered by the Members of the House.

MR. DODSON observed, that Notice had been given of these Resolutions on Thursday. The Notice appeared on the Paper on Friday, and there had been ample time for considering what Amendments should be proposed. The proposals of the Government, moreover, were not absolutely new. The principal one had been discussed several times before. During more than one Session they had had actual experience of the operation of this Rule, or of one closely resembling it. The difficulty of so proposing the first Amendment as not to exclude others was imaginary. As to the question whether the matter should be considered in the House or in Committee, he pointed out that if it were considered in Committee there would be

this advantage-that hon. Members could speak more than once to the same question, and that the Mover could speak in defence of his own Resolution as often as he pleased. On the other hand, there would be no great difficulty in conducting the discussion in the House; because it would be open to every hon. Member to speak upon each proposition and upon each Amendment to each proposition. At the same time, if it would be more agreeable to hon. Members to take the discussion in Committee, he thought it would be worth while for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make this concession.

MR. GORST thought that owing to the form of the Resolutions it would be better to postpone the discussion upon them.

MR. KNATCHBULL - HUGESSEN remarked that there was no real difficulty in the form of the Resolution, and it was a mistake to suppose that no Amendments could be introduced if the Amendment of his hon. Friend (Mr. Rylands) was negatived. The Speaker could put the Question that the word "whenever" in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Resolutions stand part of the Question, and if that was carried, any Amendments could be subsequently moved. If the House would only now consent to discuss the Amendment actually before it, it would at least be decided whether or not the House was willing to make any alteration at all. That would be at least one step gained.

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE explained that the Amendment was not so inconsistent as it might seem, because his hon. Friend was obliged by the Forms of the House to insert in it the word "forthwith." That, however, could be remedied by the mode of putting the Question, and on that ground he should support the Amendment; but he gave Notice that he should move to report Progress, not in any factious sense, but with a view to testing the opinion of the House as to whether they should go on with the matter to-night or not.

MR. BERESFORD HOPE asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to explain what the law of the matter was, because many hon. Members were puzzled by the conflicting explanations they had heard.

MR. ASSHETON thought it would be a great waste of time to discuss the

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