at the situation of Zululand, it was obvious that those arms and appliances could only have reached the country in one of two ways—either by the Portuguese frontier or through our own Colonies. If the former method had been resorted to, he hoped Her Majesty's Government had made representations to the Portuguese Government, with the view of putting an end to the traffic. If, as had been reported, the Portuguese Government were powerless to interfere, he saw nothing to prevent an agreement being arrived at to enable our Government themselves to take action in the matter. But there was reason to believe that, in many instances, the arms had been manufactured in this country. If so, that was very serious indeed; and he was sure their Lordships would agree with him in denouncing such a traffic as most nefarious and unpatriotic. He scarcely knew what could be done; but he trusted that the Government would devise some mode of action. Certain it was that many of our brave soldiers would have been spared had the Zulus not been armed so efficiently with British weapons; and thus it was that he ventured to trouble the Government with his Question. He had to ask, Whether any steps have been taken to prevent the importation of arms and warlike stores into Zululand? on this subject. There is no restriction on the importation of arms and ammunition to the Cape; but when imported they cannot be removed from the Queen's stores inwards without a licence. In Natal application must be made to an authority named the Arms Board in respect to the removal of arms; that body reports to the Attorney General, who accedes to or refuses the application in accordance with the instructions of the Lieutenant Governor. The importation of ammunition by private persons is forbidden. They can only be imported by the Lieutenant Governor or by an officer of the Government appointed by him in that behalf. The provisions as regards gunpowder are almost, if not quite, as stringent. In Natal and the Orange Free State the trade in ammunition is in the hands of the Government, and powder may be sold only from the Government magazines. In the Cape no great distinction is made between the trade in arms and ammunition, and gunpowder may be kept in private magazines if licensed, or, where the quantity does not exceed 100 lbs., in a place other than a licensed magazine approved by a magistrate. As to ports and harbours, the principal harbour on that coast where warlike stores can be landed is Delagoa Bay, which is in Portuguese territory: EARL CADOGAN: I can assure your but Her Majesty's ships, which in time Lordships that the attention of Her Ma- of war cruise in those waters, will take jesty's Government has been directed every care to prevent it. A correspondto this important and intricate question. ence has taken place between the Foreign My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Office and the Portuguese Government State for the Colonies and my noble upon this subject. That Government, Friend the late Secretary have been it is fair to say, has met us in the most in constant correspondence with the friendly spirit, and has promised that its local authorities on the subject. With best efforts shall be directed to suppress regard to the export of arms from this the traffic wherever they have the power. country, that, I believe, has never been I may give an instance to show the diffiprohibited except in cases of great na-culties they have to contend with. My tional emergency. With respect to the importation of arms into the Colonies of South Africa, those Colonies have their own laws and regulations, which, in the opinion of the Government, would, if strictly enforced, suffice to prevent this traffic. I need hardly state that under present circumstances it would be in the interest of Natal, as well as that of Her Majesty's Government, to do all that is possible to prevent the importation of arms to the Zulus. Perhaps I may be allowed to state the chief local regulations existing noble Friend says he believed Delagoa Bay was the only place where armis could be imported on those coasts; but when the Portuguese prohibited the importation at that harbour, they found that at a place north of their territory a large importation was taking place. Care will be taken to prevent it in future. I think it right to say that the arms of the Zulus have been largely obtained from Kimberley and the Diamond District, where Native labour can only be obtained by payment in guns and rifles. The Zulus will come any distance to work if they can only take away with them a gun or a rifle. I cannot help expressing my conviction that one of the most important results of Confederation, if it is ever attained, would be the establishment of a uniform | system of controlling the sale of arms and ammunition in the Provinces of South Africa. I can assure the noble Viscount that every precaution has been taken and will be taken by Her Majesty's Government, and that all due vigilance will be exercised with a view of remedying the evil of which he so justly complains. THE EARL OF CARNARVON: I quite feel with my noble Friend that in connection with South African affairs there cannot be a more important question than this. It is quite true, as my noble Friend says, that when I was at the Colonial Office I gave my best attention to this matter, and I am glad to hear that the present Head of the Colonial Office is doing the same. It was one of the first points to which my attention was directed, because I received from all quarters information as to the enormous quantity of arms and ammunition gradually being imported into South Africa, and over which we exercised no control. Arms in South Africa are the great object of ambition of every Zulu or Kaffir. They are, so to speak, the current coin in which the wages of labour are paid; and it has been, as we have reason to know, the policy of Cetewayo, the Zulu King, to insist on every man of his tribe somehow or other providing himself with a gun. The result has been that a very large amount of arms has been accumulated. Two years ago, while I was at the Colonial Office, I was led to believe there were not less than 500,000 arms of one sort or another in the Southern part of Africa. I am bound to say I think my noble Friend touched very lightly indeed on the conduct of the Portuguese Government in this respect; for it is my opinion that a very large portion indeed of the supply finds its way through Delagoa Bay-in fact, I believe the importation formed a large part of the revenue of that port. I am glad to hear that the Portuguese Government have promised, at all events, to exercise restrictions; but I should have been more pleased to hear that they had suppressed the trade altogether -for nothing short of that will have the VOL. CCXLIII. [THIRD SERIES.] desired effect. The question of Confederation has an important bearing on this matter. It was one of the great objects I had in view, when I urged the Confederation of the South African Colonies, that uniform laws as to the sale and regulation of arms should be adopted. In August 1875, I was able, after a good deal of correspondence and negotiation, to bring together a Conference here in London. At that Conference were represented the Colony of Natal, the Province of Griqualand West, and the Orange Free State. One Colony was wanting-namely, the Cape-and the Transvaal. The Transvaal had mixed itself up with Native hostilities, and the Cape was so very jealous of anything that approached a mere suspicion of Confederation that although Mr. Molteno, the Minister of the Colony, came to England at the time, he did not attend the Conference. That Conference met and discussed various matters-the sale of spirits, the education and apprenticeship of Kaffir children, and finally the introduction and regulation of arms. There was perfect unanimity as to the course which ought to be adopted on this latter point; and the Conference came to the conclusion-very sensiblythat in order to do anything effective it was necessary to secure the co-operation of all the European Settlements in South Africa. It is perfectly obvious that it must be so, because if you left one side open for the introduction of arms, it would be utterly useless for the others to pass restrictive laws. I endeavoured to get Mr. Molteno to give his support; but he could not see the matter in the same light. Consequently, the conclusions arrived at by the Conference were of no avail. That is a circumstance I have never ceased to regret, for it lies very much at the root of our present difficulty, and is the real cause of the loss of so many valuable lives. I understand that the Portuguese Government have now undertaken to impose restrictions on the sale of arms in Delagoa Bay. That will be a very great advantage if they carry out their engagement. And I am glad to find my noble Friend has laid on the Table documents which show that the Cape Government is disposed to view the matter in a very different spirit from that which it showed a few years ago; but it appears to me that the enactments my noble Friend quoted to 3 C night require tightening up a good deal. | into operation on the 1st of January. There can be no doubt that arms have Under its operation, the additional come through Delagoa Bay, and I regret charges made upon provincial mesto say through English merchants. sages over London messages had been There have also been rough manufac- abolished; and it was intended, as optories in the interior beyond our Border portunity occurred, to do away with the where weapons are produced, which, differential rate which still prevailed in although of a very inferior order, are the case of provincial messages to other capable of being used with deadly effect, foreign countries. There is an important despatch of Sir Garnet Wolseley's in existence upon the question of the importation of arms, and if there is no objection, I would suggest to the Government that its publication at this period would be interesting and useful. POST OFFICE (TELEGRAPHIC DEPART- DR. CAMERON asked the Postmaster General, Whether it is true that in the re-arrangement of the telegraphic charges between Great Britain and Germany and Holland, which came into operation on the 1st of January last, the additional shilling formerly charged on messages from provincial offices has been done away with; and, if so, whether he contemplates, in the case of telegrams to other foreign countries, the abolition of the differential rate at present charged on messages from the provinces ? LORD JOHN MANNERS, in reply, said, that the new tariff with regard to telegraphic messages between Great ECCLESIASTICAL SALARIES (INDIA). QUESTION. MR. BAXTER asked the Under Secretary of State for India, Why the Return relating to Ecclesiastical Salaries in India, ordered by this House so long ago as the 5th July 1877, has not yet been presented? MR. E. STANHOPE: Sir, I am sorry to say that the Return has not yet been received; but it has been a very difficult one to prepare. After I observed the hon. Member's Question, in December last, I caused a letter to be written to India on the subject; but we have not at present received any reply. ARMY-ARMY RESERVES-MILITIA. QUESTION. MR. J. HOLMS asked the Secretary of State for War, How many recruits were obtained for the Militia in 1878; and, what was the number of the First Class Army Reserve on the 1st January 1879 ? COLONEL STANLEY, in reply, said, that the number of recruits to the firstthe number of the latter branch on the named body in 1878 was 39,395; while 1st of January, 1879, was 15,085. RAILWAY ACCIDENTS-LEGISLATION. QUESTIONS. MR. BENTINCK asked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce, during the present Session, any measure for the better preventing of accidents on Railways? VISCOUNT SANDON: Sir, we have not lost sight of the subject, but have been considering during the Recess the serious and difficult questions which are raised by the Report and recommendations of the Royal Commission on Railway Accidents. I would beg my hon. opinion of the Government on the subject until I bring in the Bill respecting the Railway Commission of which we have already given Notice. MR. BRIGGS asked the President of the Board of Trade, If his attention has been drawn to the case of a child five years old named Charles Richard Hindle, who was killed on Saturday last by a passing train at Harrison's Level Crossing on the London and Tilbury Railway; whether he is aware that within the last ten years six persons have been killed and several others seriously injured at the same place; if it is true that the Railway Company purpose laying down two more lines of rails, thus adding considerably to the danger; and, whether, looking at all the circumstances of the case, he will take steps to compel the Railway Company to prevent this destruction of human life? VISCOUNT SANDON: Sir, I have heard with regret of the accident to which the hon. Gentleman alludes, a return of which has been received from the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company, and not from the London and Tilbury Company, as is stated in the Question. I fear it is too true that within the last 10 years six persons have been killed and several others seriously injured at the same place. I have no information as to whether the Company propose to lay down more lines of rail, nor have I any power to make inquiry from a Railway Company on the subject. On referring to a Paper which was laid before Parliament the year before last, I find that the Railway Company stated that they were prepared to take steps for the erection of a bridge at this dangerous spot, if the expense was shared with them by the Corporation of Blackburn; but that the apportionment of the expense between the two parties was the obstacle to carrying out the work. I would again remind the hon. Member that I have no power to insist upon any action in a matter of this kind; but whatever steps I can take to guard against the destruction of human life I will take. Whether there is in his Department information which would enable him to lay upon the Table of the House the following Return, viz.-Return in respect of each county in England and Wales, in the shape of a map, showing the boundaries of the urban and rural sanitary districts, or parts thereof within the county; also showing the boundaries of all unions being wholly or partly within the county; together with an index for each county of all such districts and parts of districts and unions, referring to numbers on the map, with the population thereof respectively as near as can be ascertained; and, whether he can provide the Return before the day on which the County Boards Bill may be set down for Second Reading? MR. SCLATER-BOOTH: Sir, there is, no doubt, much information in the Department which would be available. for the preparation of such a Return and map; but it would be a work of considerable time, labour, and expense, that I cannot at present promise it shall be undertaken. I have, however, recently given instructions for a revised list of unions and constituent parishes, and will see if it is possible to add any further information such as would meet, to some extent, the wish expressed by the right hon. Gentleman; but I could not undertake that it shall be available before the second reading of the County Boards Bill. SOUTH AFRICA-THE ZULU KING NEGOTIATIONS.-QUESTION. MR. JAMES asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether it is the case that an interview between Sir Theophilus Shepstone and the Envoys of Cetewayo took place on the Zulu frontier on the 19th of October 1877; if so, whether any despatches are in the possession of Her Majesty's Government stating the substance of the proceedings between Sir Theophilus and the Envoys on that occasion, and whether they can be laid before Parliament? SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH: Sir, the despatches relating to the interview alluded to by the hon. Member arrived last spring, I think, and were URBAN AND RURAL SANITARY DIS-marked "Confidential." I did not think TRICTS.-COUNTY MAPS-QUESTION. MR. STANSFELD asked the President of the Local Government Board, it desirable to produce them at the time, because they related to a question then still pending before the Boundary Com mission appointed by the Natal Govern- | with the subjects reported on by the ment; and it seemed better that the Select Committee on the Metropolitan production of the Papers on the subject Fire Brigade? should be delayed until after the award had been pronounced by the High Commissioner. That objection does not now exist; and the despatches will be presented among the forthcoming Papers. PUBLIC HEALTH ACT-BACK-TO-BACK HOUSES. QUESTION. SIR SYDNEY WATERLOW asked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether that Board has, after communication with the local authorities, conceded the principle of erecting backto-back houses; and, whether he would object to lay upon the Table of the House, a Report upon the subject prepared by Mr. Netten Radcliffe, of the Medical Department of the Board, and Mr. P. Gordon Smith, the Board's Architect, after local inquiry in the district where the concession of the principle was granted? MR. SCLATER - BOOTH: Sir, it would not be correct to say that the principle of erecting back-to-back houses has been conceded by the Local Government Board; but it is true that in the case of Idle, in the North Brierly Union, the Board have stated that, owing to the exceptional circumstances of the locality, they considered that this form of construction might be recognized, provided certain conditions could be complied with, and the regulation brought within the operation of bye-laws under the Public Health Act. But no bye-laws have as yet been submitted by the local authority, so that none have as yet been sanctioned by the Board. I should mention that one of the peculiar circum stances is that Parliament has sanctioned back-to-back houses in the neighbouring towns of Leeds and Bradford. There is no objection to lay upon the Table of the House the Report of Mr. Netten Radcliffe and Mr. Gordon Smith on this case. THE METROPOLITAN FIRE BRIGADE -LEGISLATION.-QUESTION. MR. RITCHIE asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce during the present Session any measure dealing MR. ASSHETON CROSS: Sir, this is an important subject, no doubt, and one to which the attention of the Government has been called; but I do not know whether, under the present pressure of Business, we are able to promise the introduction of a measure this Session. Attention is being particularly called to the matter owing to the fire which occurred at the Colonial Office in Downing Street the other day. BOARD OF WORKS (IRELAND)—CLARE CASTLE PIER AND HARBOUR. QUESTION. MR. STACPOOLE asked the Secre tary to the Treasury, Whether his Department will recommend the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland to advance, on the security of the dues received by that body from the local authorities of the Clare Castle Pier and Harbour, county Clare, since 1843-4, the sum reported by the Board of Works engineer to be necessary for improving the pier and harbour, so that the existing obstruction to navigation may be minimized, if not altogether removed? Sir, the subject mentioned by the hon. Member for Ennis has not yet been laid before the Treasury, and I understand from the Chairman of the Board of Works in Ireland it is not likely to be so, unless a satisfactory answer is given to the inquiries which were made in the letter addressed to the hon. Member by SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON: that Board on the 15th November last. Should the Board of Works recommend a loan, such as that mentioned by the hon. Member, the matter will receive the best attention of the Treasury. I think, however, he will see it would be quite inconsistent with the position of the Treasury to take the initiative in making a loan without first being consulted by the local authorities. |