had been driven to move this Amendment against their will, would now withdraw it? They were perfectly mistaken if they thought they would do anything of the kind. He did not care how small the number might be in the division in favour of the Amendment-it would at least be a protest. He knew hon. Members who represented English and Scotch constituencies, who often voted with the Irish Members, but who would not do so as regarded this Amendment-and for why? Because they knew that in a weak moment they had given up their privileges; and they now saw the stubborn fight the Irish Members were making for the possession of theirstherefore, the English and Scotch Members would not vote with them, because it would imply that they had not endeavoured sufficiently to keep their own. privileges. The Irish Party would carry with them into the Lobby none but the Irish votes; yet it would be a protest which would go farther and would remain on record as a proof or test that they had done what they could to help the English Members to retain their privileges, and that the English Members did not support them when they wanted to retain theirs. Let that fact be known to the country, and it would be known in history; though he ventured to say that this Rule would not remain many years unaltered, because it would be found to trench too much on the privileges of the Members who would form the new Parliament.

Question put.

The House divided:-Ayes 31; Noes 131 Majority 100.-(Div. List, No. 22.)

Question,

"That the words unless an Amendment be moved relating to the Estimates proposed to be taken in Supply, on first going into Committee on the Army, Navy, and Civil Services respec

tively,' be added to the First Resolution," -put, and agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, proposed, "That, whenever the Committee of Supply appointed for the consideration of the ordinary Army, Navy, and Civil Service Estimates stands as the first Order of the Day on a Monday, Mr. Speaker shall leave the Chair without putting any Question, unless an Amendment be moved or Question raised relating to the Estimates proposed to be taken in Supply on first going into Committee on the Army, Navy, and Civil Services respectively."

MR. PARNELL moved to amend the Resolution, by adding the words

"And unless Notice has been given of an Amendment to be offered to the Question calling attention to the grievance arising out of the conduct of the Government or the administration of the Laws."

All he wanted was to retain the ancient privilege of calling attention to grievances, and in drawing his Amendment he had carefully followed the words used by Sir Erskine May in his book on Parliamentary practice.

Amendment proposed,

At the end of the Question, to add the words "unless Notice has been given of an Amendment to be offered to the Question calling attention to any grievance arising out of the conduct of the Government or the administration of the Laws."—(Mr. Parnell.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added.”

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he did not think the House would accept the proposal of the hon. Member, inasmuch as it could only have the effect of introducing great confusion into the conduct of Business as to what was and was not admissible in the way of Amendment to the Motion to go into Committee of Supply. If the Resolution as it was drawn were adopted, there would remain abundant opportunities for calling attention to any grievances which might be alleged to have resulted from mismanagement on the part of the Government, and those opportunities were made conspicuous by the action of hon. Members on the other side.

MR. MORGAN LLOYD said, he had in previous divisions voted in the minority, but on the present occasion he should support Her Majesty's Government; because he regarded the Amendment before the House as an attempt to re-open a question which he thought had been compromised. It might be said that every grievance worthy of being made the subject of an Amendment on going into Committee of Supply was directly or indirectly a grievance arising out of the conduct of the Government, or the administration of the law. The proposed Amendment, therefore, simply raised in another form the question already decided by the House.

MR. O'DONNELL denied that every Amendment which was moved on the Motion to go into Committee of Supply

MR. O'CONNOR POWER said, that if the argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Beaumaris (Mr. Morgan Lloyd) were really a sound one, he should be inclined to appeal to his hon. Friend the Member for Meath (Mr. Parnell) not to press the Amendment.

MR. O'CLERY remarked that he would give his hearty support to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Meath, because it involved, he thought, a question of great importance to Irish Members, who represented a country where it could not be said that the laws were administered as fairly and equitably as in England. It was, unfortunately, the case that in too many instances legal appointments in that country were bestowed as a reward for services to a particular Party. That principle had been extended even to the Bench; and there was a time when men who had served their Party in that House at the expense of their own honour and conscience were actually raised to the Irish Bench. English Members might be proud that the Judicial Bench in this country had never been disgraced in that way. There had been many offices in Ireland which had been filled up by persons whose sole claims consisted of services, sometimes of a doubtful character, which they had rendered to their Party; and therefore he maintained that the Amendment of his hon. Friend was worthy of consideration, when they took into account the position which Ireland held in that respect. By the Constitution, Ireland was allowed to be represented in that House; and yet they were about to deny to her Representatives the right of criticizing the action of the men

their wish, to administer justice in that country. He thought that his hon. Friend deserved the thanks of every liberty-loving man in that House for bringing forward this Amendment; and he sincerely hoped that a good many Members on both sides would be found to support it. He had not taken much part in these discussions; but he must say that, in his humble judgment, the best of the argument had been entirely on the side of the men who had striven to protect the House with its traditions of 600 years of freedom, and the defence of public right against the attempt of a Minister, however powerful, to force his will upon it. It was still not too late to say to the Minister that if he had any regard for the honour of the institutions which Ministers were so much in the habit of extolling at the Mansion House and elsewhere, he would, at any rate, accede to the Amendment, if he could not altogether abandon the Resolution.

MR. BIGGAR observed that the Amendment raised a very different point to that which usually arose out of Motions moved as Amendments to the Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair. The laws in Ireland were administered by persons who received no salaries, and to whom no money was voted directly or indirectly; so that, in reality, there would be no opportunity during the progress of Votes through Committee whereby to impugn their conduct, should it be thought necessary. Really, in many cases, administration of the law was of the most partial character, and the instances in which magistrates misconducted themselves were by no means rare. Therefore, they ought to have an opportunity, as the occasion arose, of discussing the conduct of the great unpaid. In the case of the Judges it was altogether different, because they could move to reduce their salaries, and perhaps it might become necessary to do so. Some of their Judges administered the law in a manner which made it a burlesque. He had been told by a gentleman connected with the Profession that one of the Judges now on the Bench was thoroughly incapable of trying criminal cases, because his invariable custom was to go for a conviction. What, then, could they expect from the great unpaid, who, in many cases, were thoroughly ignorant of their duties, and

manner.

Question put.

The House divided:-Ayes 47; Noes 139: Majority 92.-(Div. List, No. 23.)

Main Question, as amended, again proposed.

MR. O'CONNOR POWER moved an Amendment to the effect that on Fridays Notices of Motion should have precedence of Orders of the Day.

Amendment proposed,

At the end of the Question, to add the words "and on Fridays Notices of Motion shall have precedence of Orders of the Day." (Mr. O'Connor Power.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

MR. MONK thought the Amendment was one deserving of the attention of the Government. The Government would lose nothing by accepting it, and they would, further, confer a fair and reasonable boon upon Members on Fridays. MR. SERJEANT SIMON supported the Amendment.

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE pointed out the inconvenience to private Members which arose on Fridays, when Supply was the first Order of the Day, from their being frequently unable to bring their Motions to the test of a Division, owing to the fact that any of the preceding Motions happened to have been negatived. He did not, however, know whether the present Amendment would furnish the best means of obviating that inconvenience.

MR. BERESFORD HOPE disapproved of the Amendment. There had been quite enough in the way of innovation in the conduct of the Business of the House, and in this case matters might with advantage be left as they were. The present Rule imported something of elasticity into their forms, and gave an opening for discussions on topics worthy of consideration, but not calling for cut-and-dry Resolutions. It would be a clear loss to the facile powers of the House if this free and easy method were VOL. CCXLIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, without entering into the merits of the question, pointed out that it would be difficult, if not impossible, for the Government to make the proposed alteration. He hoped the Amendment would not be pressed, as he apprehended it would not be, in order to attempt to repeal, as it were by a side wind, a Standing Order of the House in accordance with which Supply was set down on the Notice Paper as the first Business on Fridays.

MR. NEWDEGATE said, the system of "calling attention" was almost un

heard of when he first entered Parliament. It was a practice which had the effect of debarring the House from expressing an opinion, and, at the same time, enabled individual Members tyrannically to occupy the attention of the House.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, he quite agreed with what had been said as to the undesirable practice of invariably negativing the first Motion for going into Supply. He did not believe it was of any advantage to the Government; because the effect was that many of the Motions that remained were put down for some other day. He did not know whether any practical remedy could be adopted against this practice; but it was one which, no doubt, it would be well to put a stop to. With regard to the Amendment that had been moved, there was one suggestion he wished to make for the consideration of Members who delighted to call themselves independent. They ought to recollect that if Friday were converted from an Order Day into a Notice Day, the probability of a "Count-out" on Friday would be increased. At present, it was very much to the interest of the Government to keep a House on Friday; but this would no longer be the case if Friday were converted into a Notice Day. The gain, if any, which the independent Members would obtain would be, to a considerable extent, neutralized by the great risk of losing the evening altogether.

MR. MORGAN LLOYD suggested that the Rules of the House might be altered so far as to allow a Division on every Motion brought forward as an

3 I

Amendment to the Motion that the Speaker should leave the Chair.

MR. PARNELL said, he was very much disappointed with the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman had promised last year to give private Members compensation by making Friday a Motion night instead of a Supply night. Now he seemed to think that private Members ought to have no compensation at all for their loss in giving up Mondays. MR. ERRINGTON and MR. BIGGAR supported the Amendment.

MR. ANDERSON suggested that, instead of the Speaker putting the Question in a form which, if affirmed, prevented any Amendment, subsequent to the first being voted upon, on a Supply night, he might put it, "That the Amendment be affirmed," and this would allow of every subsequent one being voted upon. The Government might also revert to the old practice of keeping a House on Fridays.

Question put.

The House divided:-Ayes 50; Noes 139 Majority 89.-(Div. List, No. 24.)

Main Question, as amended, again proposed.

MR. BIGGAR said, the next Amendment stood on the Paper in the name of his hon. Friend the Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell); but as he was prevented from moving it by the Rules of debate, he had undertaken to move it for him. It was to add, at the end of

the amended Resolution

Provided always, That when Notice of a Motion has been given which, but for this Rule, would have been moved on a Monday, the next succeeding Committee of Ways and Means shall be a first Order of the Day, and Notices applicable on going into Committee of Supply on Monday shall be transferred to going into Committee on Ways and Means."

He expected the Government would accept the Amendment, for the reason that originally Ways and Means was included in Supply but during the early stages of the discussion on this question the Government agreed to withdraw Ways and Means from the operation of the Rule. The object of the Amendment was to give an opportunity of discussing general questions on the Motion to go into Committee of Ways and Means. If the Government assented to this

principle it could only be reasonable to make Ways and Means the first Order, as otherwise these questions might be brought on at a very late hour.

Amendment proposed,

At the end of the Question, to add the words tion has been given which, but for this Rule, "Provided always, That when Notice of a Mowould have been moved on a Monday, the next succeeding Committee of Ways and Means shall be a first Order of the Day, and Notices applicable on going into Committee of Supply on Monday shall be transferred to going into Committee on Ways and Means."-(Mr. Biggar)

Question proposed, "That those words. be there added."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, the hon. Member could not have expected the Amendment to be accepted by the Government. According to it, the next succeeding Committee of Ways and Means would be a Wednesday, for it was a Standing Order of the House that Ways and Means should always be on the Paper on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. Therefore, the next day for the Committee would be Wednesday. The hon. Member next proposed that the Committee on that day should have precedence. But by the Rules of the House Bills of private Members had precedence on Wednesdays. Therefore, this proposal would create considerable confusion. He did not himself see what object would be gained by the Amendment; because if any hon. Member failed to bring on his Motion on Committee of Supply he could himself postpone it to the next occasion of Ways and Means, with the exception, of course, that he could not take precedence of those hon. Members who had already put their Motions. They would only be encumbering themselves by passing this Resolution.

MR. O'DONNELL said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had very clearly and lucidly shown that the concession of the Committee of Ways and Means, on which he laid so much stress last week, did not amount to anything at all. He had asked the House to give the Government a great deal of credit for their concessions with regard to the Committee of Ways and Means; but as it was now admitted that by the present Standing Orders the Committee was only fixed for certain days, it was quite clear that to call attention to grievances previously

would be very little use. It followed conclusively that the Government had made a concession which was, in fact, no concession whatever; and he strongly suspected that several other so-called concessions should be cast under the same head.

MR. BIGGAR said, by the advice of his hon. Friend the Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell) he would withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question, as amended, put.

The House divided:-Ayes 130; Noes 50: Majority 80.-(Div. List, No. 25.)

Resolved, That, whenever the Committee of Supply appointed for the consideration of the ordinary Army, Navy, and Civil Service Estimates stands as the first Order of the Day on a Monday, Mr. Speaker shall leave the Chair without putting any question, unless an Amendment be moved or Question raised relating to the Estimates proposed to be taken in Supply on first going into Committee on the Army, Navy, and Civil Services respectively.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, there were other Resolutions on the Paper, but it would be obviously impossible to move them at that hour. He should propose, therefore, that they stand over till Thursday week. On Thursday his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War would introduce the Mutiny Bill; and he hoped on that day to take Supply as the first Order for the purpose of taking some Supplementary Estimates, which would be presented next day-Tuesday-for the purpose of providing for the Exchequer Bonds, shortly falling due. He hoped to lay the Estimates on the Table to-night (Tuesday), to have them in the hands of Members on Wednesday, and to go into Committee of Supply on Thursday.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON supposed that the Orders of the Day would be postponed after Supply had been taken till the Mutiny Bill had been brought in.

MAJOR NOLAN asked whether the Government could bring on the Mutiny Bill in that way before the Army Estimates had been submitted?

COLONEL STANLEY said, it was perfectly competent for the Government to do this. The Mutiny Bill of this year would consist of two parts-one that

which he proposed to introduce on Thursday, and the other the annual Bill, which gave the actual control over the Force.

MAJOR NOLAN said, he had always understood that the Mutiny Bill could not be introduced till after the Army Estimates had been voted. Was this a change that the Government was introducing; and, if so, what authority had they for making it?

MR. ASSHETON CROSS said, the Secretary of State for War proposed to introduce on Thursday what was, in fact, an Army Discipline Bill; and this, when passed, would be a permanent Act. He would also introduce afterwards a short Mutiny Bill, which would have to be passed year by year, and which undoubtedly could not be introduced until the Army Estimates had been brought in.

Further Consideration of Resolutions relating to the Business of the House deferred till Thursday 6th March.

ASSIZES BILL-[BILL 83.]

(Sir Matthew Ridley, Mr. Secretary Cross.)

SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read.

SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, it gave the Government power by an Order in Council to group certain counties and boroughs together for the purpose of the Spring Assizes, as it would be in the knowledge of some hon. Members had already been done in the case of the Winter Assizes. The Spring Assizes would shortly commence; and it was very important, therefore, that this Bill should be at once passed. Its object was to effect an economy of time and labour; and therefore he hoped the House would not ob| ject to read it a second time.

Motion made, and Question proposed,, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Sir Matthew Ridley.)

MR. PARNELL thought more time should have been given for considering the bearing of this important measure. Did it apply to Ireland? ["No!"] If it did not, his objections to it were, to a certain extent, removed; but, at the