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water, but are so long making their prepara- | Washington and his pupil, sir? the man that tions, sir, that somebody always gets in before owed all the greatness he possessed to his them I disapprove, sir, of monopolizing the master? I should as soon think of instituting a whole time and attention of the Society; and comparison between the sun and moon, sirI trust, sir, my motives for making this sugges-between the body that warms, enlightens, and tion will not be misunderstood.

President. Do you make a motion to that efect, sir?

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Mr. Stack. I do, sir; for it appears to me, that the sin of modern times, sir, is the propensity to talk, sir, when men have nothing to say, sir; and an unwillingness to leave off, sir, when one has done. I am a friend to cal rights, sir-and I wish to give every an an opportunity to exercise his tongue, ite hus any disposition to do so, sir.

A. Steamer. Mr. President-I ise to ask if there is any question before the meeting? !re ident Does any one second the motion

of Mr. Slack? Me. Slowmatch. [Drawling very slowly.] I will second his motion, Mr. President; though five minutes will hardly allow me I me to hurry over all the ground I had marked out for myself on this occasion. I will second the motion, however, Mr. President.

President. Gentlemen, it has been moved wat seconded, that no gentleman be allowed to speak upon the question

Mr. Slack. No, sir; no. sir; I did not move that they le not allowed to speak upon the question, but

Pre ident

It is moved and seconded, that no geutleman be allowed to speak more than

five minutes

Mr. Slack. Upon the question, sir-Lot more than five minutes upon the question.

President. It the gentleman will give me one minute. I will put the question so as to suit him. Gentlemen, if it be your minds that no member shall be allowed to speak more than five minutes upon the question before

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Mr. Slack. Beg pardon, sir; not upon the question before us-which is a question of order merely-but upon the question proposed for discussion this evening. Excuse me, sir; but it is best to go straight forward, and not get into a tangle, sir, as they do in Congress President. Gentlemen who are in favor of allowing only five minutes to every speaker

Mr. Slack. Five minutes to each speaker, sir-at one time, sir.

President. Gentlemen, you heard the motion of the gentleman as he made it; and if it be your minds to sustain it, you will please to hold up your hands. [All hands up.] It is a vote, gentlemen.

Mr. Bunker. Will the Secretary be good enough to read, again, the subject under discussion this evening?

Secretary. "Was Washington, or Lafayette, the greater man ?"

Mr Bunker. Mr. President!
President. Mr. Bunker, gentlemen.

Mr. Bunker. Mr. President-I rise, sir, to express my astonishment, that any body should propose such a question for the consideration of an American What, sir! are we called on to institute a comparison between the great

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guides the earth, and that inferior orb, which moves, sir, as it is compelled, and, shedding no warmth in its beams. is dependent upon the sun for even the cold light it dispenses. Sir. I can hardly treat the comparison seriously; for, much as I have admired the romantic heroism of the young Frenchman, it never before entered into my head, that he was a rival of Washington-that any American could be willing, for a moment, to allow that a foreigner could be as dear to him as his own beloved Washington.

Mons. Bonjour. Ma foi, Monsieur le President; the kes-ti-on is not who de gentilhomme shall love, but who is de most grand homme. I hope de gentilhomme will stick himself to the kes-ti-on.

Mr. Bunker. I had nearly done, Mr. President. I cannot think that any American will attempt to institute a comparison between the immortal Washington, and any other man that ever lived.

Mr. Brandywine Mr. President!

President. Mr. Brandywine, gentlemen.

Mr. Brandywine. Sir, the gentleman has, very unceremoniously, assumed ti e very point in dispute. He has allowed his feelings, I fear, sir, to warp his judgment in this matter. He is at liberty, sir, to love Washington better than any other man He is justified in feeling under greater obligation to him than to any other man; but, sir, in considering the question before us, it is the duty of every disputant to divest himself of all partialities of every sort, however patriotic and amiable they may appear, and dispassionately to view the claims of the two great men in question. It is true, sir, that Lafayette was the pupil of Washington; but this is the first time, sir, that I ever heard that a pupil must, necessarily, all his life long, be inferior to his master Washington himself once had a master, sir, but the probability is. that he excelled him The gentleman, sir, compares his favorite to the sun; he does right to do so, sir; but he should recollect that there are more suns than one. It is not for the inhabitants of our system, who are warmed and cheered by our sun, sir, to say that the glorious suns of other systems are inferior, sir, and only moons. The gentleman thinks, sir, that no American will venture to assert the claim of Lafayette to equal rank with Washington; but, sir, I am an American, and a countryman of Washington-and I am not ashamed to acknowledge the claims, the equal claims, of Lafayette, to the love and homage of the world. The gentleman may think of me as he pleases, sir, for this avowal; but, sir, neither his contempt for me, nor his love for Washington, will prove the position he assumes. I wait. sir, to hear something besides bare assertion, unsupported, as in this case, by reason. fact, or argument. Mr. King. Mr. President! President. Mir. King, gentlemen.

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Mr. King. I rejoice, Mr. President, that it rank of colonel, or even general, under the fell to my lot to be upon the Washington side king, was superior to that of commander-inof this argument; for, sir, I should have been chief of all the American forces-an appointsorely puzzled for any thing like an argumentment which almost involved the control of the on the other side. To me, sit, the bright whole nation. But, allowing, for the sake of and pre-eminent points of our Washington's argument, that a sacrifice was made, who character are so numerous, that it would be does not see that the sacrifices of Lafayette vain to attempt a display of them all. I shall, were, in every respect, greater? Did Washtherefore, sir, just mention one of them, to ington risk ascending the scaffold as a rebel? atford gentlemen on the other side an oppor- so did the foreigner who aided and abetted tunity to concentrate their remarks upon a the rebels. Did Washington abandon the ingle point, and thus see the striking contrast doubtful chance of promotion under a pre which the two characters exhibit. Where, judiced monarch? so did Lafayette abandon sir, in the wide range of history, can you find the certain promotion which awaited him at a parallel to the disinterestedness of Wash- the court of a monarch, who had already ington? At an early age, he became a singled him out for special favors. tavorite of the provincial government; and, at Washington risk the loss of all his property the outbreak of the revolution, the way to by joining his countrymen? Lafayette brought preferment lay in his adherence to the mother more with him than Washington ever owned. country; but, sir, he did not hesitate in his Did Washington fight to preserve his own Choice-he rejected the royal offers, and property from confiscation? Lafayette fou.ht embraced a cause which promised him no to save the property of others. Did Washother elevation than the scaffold. Besides, ington accept a command which separated sir, he was wealthy-and, the moment he him from his wife and family, for a few became a rebel, he forfeited his all, should he hundred miles, and for a part of the year? tail of success. Nay, more, sir, he knew that, so did Lafayette leave a young wife, a beloved in accepting the command of the American family, and a devoted country, to be separated, forces, he must become an exile from the wife not for months, but for years; not for hundreds, of his bosom and the home of his affection.bat for thousands of miles-with hardly a hope But, sir, he did not hesitate-he left all. Nay, sir, he refused to accept any compensation for his own untiring services and sufferings in a seven years' war; but he never forgot to urge the claims of his suffering fellow-soldiers. Sir, the event was fortunate, and sanctioned these sacrifices; but, where else shall we look for such an instance of devoted patriotism and disinterestedness? Surely not, sir, in the conduct of him who left his country, and estate, and family, secure in Europe, and only risked his person in the contest-a risk that was shared by the meanest soldier. I shall wait, sir, to hear what our opponents have to say upon this point, before I proceed❘ to other traits of character as brilliant, as unique, and as undisputed as this.

Mr. York. Mr. President! President. Mr. York, gentlemen. Mr. York. I am unused to debate, Mr. President; but, as I intended to say a few words this evening, I had thought the best time to do so would be, when the argument of our opponents was most weak and untenable This time has arrived, sir; the arguments of the gentleman who has just taken his seat are of this character, and I will ask your attention one moment, while I endeavor to maintain the position, that, in our revolutionary war, Lafayette showed more disinterestedness than Washington. The gentleman says, sir, that, in embracing the cause of the colonies, his bero relinquished all the honors and emolu ments which awaited him as the favorite of the royal governor. Sir, it is a well known fact, that Washington had been slighted by the British government; he had been made subordinate to a foreign general, who bad rejected his advice, and sneered at the provincial officers. But, sir, admitting that no such prejudice against the provincials existed, it is by no means certain, that the

of any communication, even by letter. Did Washington refuse compensation for his services? Lafayette did more, he poured out his treasures like water, that he neither hoped nor cared to gather up again. When informed that the Americans were in want of every thing, and could not promise him any pay, he fitted out a vessel of war, and loaded her, on his own account. When he arrived, and found his regiment naked and destitute, he equipped them at his own expense. I think, sir, that the gentlemen on the other side of the question must seek some other foundation than disinterestedness, on which to build the superior claims of Washington.

Mr. Bull. Mr. President!

President, Mr. Bull, gentlemen.

Mr. Bull. Sir, I did not mean to take any part in this discussion, because any thing I might say against the claims of the French intermeddler, might be attributed to the national prejudice which has always existed between France and my native England.

Mons. Bonjour. Pardon, monsieur! I will, shall, shall, will not myself sit down and hear de vil nom intermeddel appliqué to de sacred nom of Lafayette. No, sare, if mon compatriot was one intermeddel, den evare fren of man is intermeddel. No, sare! I vill not excuse de prejujés of one ennemi mortel. I hate evare ting dat look like Jean Bull; evare ting, sare! toujours, toujours, nevare.

Presi lent. Mr. Bull will see the propriety of abstaining from the use of offensive epithets, where the national feelings are so sensi tive.

Mr. Bull. I merely meant to remark, sir. that it has always been my opinion, that if the Americaus had rebelled against any other uation than the English, who are the hereditary enemies of France, it would have been long, indeed, sir, before the disinterested

Lafayette would have taken the trouble to historical fact, in answer to the gentleman cross the Atlantic.

Mr. Fairside. Mr. President! In reply President. Mr. Fairside, gentlemen. Mr. Fairside. In answer to the gentleman last up, I would remark, sir, that there is every reason to believe, that Lafayette loved the cause of human liberty for itself alone; and the gentleman has no reason to suppose, that the chivalric youth would not have gone to Mexico as readily as to the British provinces, had the seeds of liberty first taken root in the dominions of Old Spain. He saw, sir, that Liberty, in Europe, was prostrated, and the iron foot of Tyranny upon her neck; he saw, sir, that the struggle must begin alsewhere, that the first blow must be struck by intelligent and determined men. His noble heart caught, instinctively, at the effort of our fathers; he knew that they had been cradled on the rock of Plymouth, sir, and his prophetic eye saw the influence that a successful struggle must exert upon the destiny of man, not only here and in Europe, but throughout the world, sir; and he lent his soul, his arm, his wealth, to the holy purpose. He was superior to prejudice, sir, even the hereditary prejudice of his country.

Mr. Bull Still, Mr. President, it might be maintained, that Lafayette was not entitled to much credit on the score of disinterestedness, since he received from your government full pay for all he advanced in its service.

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just up.
It is unfair, sir, to reckon the
services of Lafayette from the time of his
arrival in America, for it is well known, that,
long before this, he had intended to come, but
had been prevented by his king. Every
stratagem was tried, to elude the vigilance
of his friends, and of the officers of govern-
ment; and, while these efforts were making,
the American commissioners at Paris thought
it their duty to inform him, that they had just
received information of the defeat of the
American forces, and the almost utter hope.
lessness of their cause. This only made him
more anxious to depart; and, when they
ingenuously confessed to him that they had
no vessel, and no means to furnish one, for
his passage to America. he purchased and
equipped one himself, and eluded the vigilance
of his government. Call you such a man an
eleventh hour man? Sir, I call him the friend
in need. But, sir, while on this point, let
me ask, where was Washington while our
patriots were bleeding on the plains of Lex-
ington, and on the heights of Charlestown?
On his farm, sir, I believe, waiting to hear
from the north.

Mr. Vernon. [Hastily] I rise, Mr. President, to say, that it was not the practice of Washington to intrude himself upon the notice of his countrymen; he uniformly obeyed the dictates of his innate modesty, and never, I repeat it, sir, never intruded his services till they were called for. When the voice of his country called him to command her armies, he instantly obeyed her call.

Mr. Mittimus. This is too bad, Mr. President, altogether too bad. What! sir, are we to be told that the noble souls who, uninvited, opposed their bosoms to the bayonets of Britain, are to be called intruders? What, sir, would have been our fate, if a few such men as Warren. Putnam, Stark, and Prescott, had not intruded themselves into the little redoubt on Bunker's Hill, which was so certain to become their tomb? Intruders! Sir, had

Mr. Fairside. Allow me, sir, to say, in reply to this new charge, that when Lafayette offered his treasures, or rather brought them, he brought them to those unable to repay him; he asked for no security-he never, sir, asked for any return. His glorious re appear ance in this country, after the lapse of half a century, revived the slumbering gratitude of those he had helped to redeem; and they did him an act of justice, sir, as honorable to themselves as unexpected and unasked for by him. I think, sir, this grateful expression of American feeling towards a benefactor, can never be fairly construed into an impeach-I been one of that glorious band of intruders, ment of his perfect disinterestedness. Mr. Vernon. Mr. President! President. Mr. Vernon, gentlemen

Mr. Vernon. The opposition, sir, have given as a glowing description of the liberality of their favorite; but, sir. they have overlooked the fact, that, when Washington joined the rebels, their cause was desperate. Lafayette did not come over until the Declaration of Independence had raised the provinces to the rank of a nation, and relieved the rebels from the fear of an ignominious death. He does not recollect, sir, that the Americans had given proofs of skill and desperate bravery, on which Lafayette could rely for ultimate success. Was not the French hero, in this respect, an eleventh hour man, sir, who expected as much honor as those who had borne the burden and beat of the day? I pause for a reply.

Mr. Millimus. Mr. President!
President. Mr. Mittimus, gentlemen.

Mr. Millimus. With your permission, sir,
I will just state what I believe to be an

I would not have thanked any monarch in
Christendom for the highest honors in his
gift; that was honor enough for one life. Sir,
the gentleman is welcome to all the merit he
claims for the modesty of his hero. I prefer
that spirit which saw that the first blow was
the great one on which the hopes of liberty
and the country depended; and which, without
asking what modesty and the courtesies of
society required, rushed to the contest, and
set a glorious example of self devotion.
Mr. Steamer. Mr. President!

President. Mr. Steamer, gentlemen.
Mr. Steamer. I rise, sir, to express my
astonishment at the course of this debate.
Can it be, sir, that we have so long mistaken
the character of Washington, and have trans-
ferred to him the honor and glory which
belonged to his young friend? It has hitherto
been the opinion of our countrymen, that they
owed the establishment of their liberties and
independence to the cool judgment, unflinching
valor, and perseverance of him whom they
have delighted to call the Father of his

country. But no, sir, we are told, that we
owe all this to a young man, who was hardly
mentioned at that trying period, and who
himself would have shrunk from the assump-
tion of any such honors. Let us, for a moment,
look at the relative merit of these heroes,
I would not
as warriors of the revolution.
detract, sir, from the value of Lafayette's
services; but I would ask, sir, what could the
services of a subordinate officer be, when
compared with those of the commander in-
chief? The siege of Boston was raised, the
unparalleled retreat from Long Island effected,
the saving victory of Trenton gained, before
On no occasion did
Lafayette arrived.
Lafayette command any considerable body
of troops, or perform any independent exploit.
It was Washington who planned and executed
the finishing stroke at Yorktown; it was he
who was consulted by Congress; it was his
name that was the bond of union; it was he
who controlled the suffering and almost rebel-
lious army. What should we say, sir, if an
attempt were made to snatch from Wellington
the bonors of Waterloo, and place them upon
the brow of some gallant commander of a
gallant detachment? Sir, I would do justice |
to the gallant Frenchman, but I should be
unwilling to name him by the side of General
Washington.

Mons. Bonjour. Ma foi! de gentilhomme
encore, again, forgets de kestion. Dis is not
who was de grand great man in de revolution
of '75, but who was de plus grand man all his
life forevare. Washington did command de
littell army of the revolution wis all de skill
necessaire; but Lafayette did command de
grand armée of France. At de age of terty
tree he was at de head of de garde nationelle,
more of four million men, more dan de whole
toute population of Amérique at de revolution.
Que of tree major-general of France, he defeat
de invading armies of de allies at Philippeville,
Mlauberge, Florennes. Ma foi! de whole army
American not enough to cook one dinnare
for de grand armée of France. I douo dat
Washington could not command de grand
I no say any
armée, mais, but he never try
ting gains Washington, but I defend my own
compatriot. I no speak de English langue,
mais, but you will pardon mon amour-patrie,
what you call

President. Patriotism.

Mons. Bonjour. Oui; I tank you; de gentil men will pardon my patriotism. [Striking his bosom several times]

Mr. Steamer. It may be allowed, Mr. President, that Lafayette was called to command ever were raised in larger armies than America; but, sir, it may admit of question, whether it did not require more skill to manage the smaller armies of our revolution. destitute, as they were, of every thing, and opposed, as they were, to the veteran troops of England, than to manage the larger armies which were collected to repel the invaders of France. I have seen the commander of a frigate unable to manage a small vesse! when the navigation was dangerous, and indebted for his life and the safety of the vessel to the skipper of a fishing-boat. The times, sir,

called for a peculiar man, and Washington
was sent, sir, and fulfilled his difficult mission
to the astonishment of all who knew the
difficulties he had to surmount, and the little
reliance he could place upon others. Besides,
he was a self taught general, but Lafayette
had the full benefit of all his experience

Mons. Bonjour. Oui, certainement, dat is
juste. Washington was de man for de time,
and so was Lafayette for de oder time. Dat
is juste, parfaitement juste.

Mr. Bunke. There is another point of view. Mr. President, in which I think the peculiar greatness of Washington was dis played. I refer to his coolness and firmness in the trying scenes of the revolution. No When beset by danger, however appalling, ever shook the equanimity of his mind. enemies within and without the camp, he never betrayed any want of firmness or selfHe was always the game steady. possession cautious, undaunted friend of 1berty; and probably to this quality, more than to any other single trait of character, we owe the successful termination of a contest at first so desperate and hopeless.

Mons. Bonjour. I am ver sorry to oppose de gentilhomme encore, mais, but, be mus allow de same vertu to my compatriot. Did Lot he persevere to come to dis contrée? Did he not stay till de war was fin-ee? Did he not oppose Louis Seize to his face, demand de constitution, and den defend de king agains de mob of two tree hundred tousand? Did [Putting he not oppose de Jacobin toujours, toujours, at de risk of his tête, what you call his finger across his throat] Did he not refuse to do homage to Napoleon, because he have betray de cause of liberté? Did he not command Napoleon to abdiquer de trone1 Did he not reject de overtures of Louis Dixhuit? Did he not rule la France in de Did he not condemn him for tree days? and did he not place Louis Philippe on de trone? Was he not toujours, not keep his word? toujours homme collect, patriote, ferme, immobile? Why, den, you no give him de same honor? hey! Ma foi! c'est injuste cela.

Mr. Bunker. It is growing late, Mr. Presi dent; but there is one other point in the character of Washington which seems to me to raise him above all competition. I refer to When at the his well-regulated ambition. head of an army, with a divided and dest tute nation at his feet. instead of imitating the examples of Cæsar and Napoleon, he meekly laid down his power, and retired to his farm. When called, by the unanimous voice of the nation, to preside over its councils, he directed them all for the public good. He knew no selfish feelings, he favored no party, he sought for no spoils, he laid no plans for permanent power, he left the care of a successor to the people; and when, as president, he might have continued to hold the supreme power, he again gave it back unstained, and retired to private life. I search in vain, sir, for a similar instance of moderation in the history of our race; and if we must concede that Lafayette comes up to him in some other respects, I trust our opponents will allow, that, in this

godlike quality, Washington stands alone, alone and unapproached

Mr. York. I should be happy to oblige the gentleman, but I must contend, that, in this respect also, the pupil has equalled his master. He might have obtained high rank in this his adopted country, but he resigned all, and went to his own oppressed land. When Louis XVI. was driven from Paris, Lafayette was at the head of the national guards, and held the destiny of France; but, in the name of four million soldiers, he took the oath to the constitution. Having organized this enormous body of troops, he refused to command them, and retired to his farm. When afterwards marshal of France, the country was torn by infamous factions, but he would not make use of military coercion. He resigned, and in his civil capacity opposed the Jacobins. When Napoleon was proposed as consul for life, be voted against him, and retired to private life. When the Bourbons were restored, and courted him, he remained at La Grange. He refused to see Napoleon, who had come to offer him rank and power. He even refused to be king, at the late revolution, and recommended Louis Philippe; and when that monarch failed to keep his word, Lafayette rebuked him for it, and retired to his estates. I do not say that this self-denial and moderation surpass that of Washington; but, as the offers were more brilliant, their rejection must certainly give Lafayette a claim to be considered equal, in in this respect, even to Washington.

Mons. Bonjour. Egal, égal; certainement égal. I love Washington, but I am de compatriot of Lafayette, and voila le tri-color pointing to his ribbon] that I wear as the memoire of him.

Mr. Slowmatch. Mr. President, I am half inclined to think, sir, that we are no nearer coming to a decision now, than we were at the commencement of this debate. I think it has been satisfactorily proved, that both Washington and Lafayette were great men. Yet it cannot be questioned, I think, that Lafayette owed much of his greatness to Washington; for the familiar intercourse of so young a man with such a mind as Washington's, must have assimilated the young mind to its matured exemplar. We may safely grant to Lafayette an equal share of disinterestedness, of military skill, of firmness, and well-restrained ambition, and yet we may fairly consider Washington the greater man. For, sir, the fact exists, that Washington, without a model, made himself what he became; but it will ever remain to be proved, that Lafayette, had he been in Washington's place, would have set such a godlike example. One point, however, in the character of Washington, remains untouched; and I will allude to it, not to provoke further discussion, bat because I think the character, admirable as it has been made to appear, must be imperfect without this crowning trait. I allude to the moral sublimity, or, if you prefer, the religious bearing of his character. There seemned to be, in all his conduct, a deep feeling of accountability to God, an unshaken

confidence in his overruling providence, an unalterable conviction, that the cause of truta and justice must finally triumph. I do not say, sir, that Lafayette was swayed by inferior motives; but I think it beyond controversy, that this religious feeling formed the basis of our Washington's character, and gave a sublimity to it, which, if Lafayette possessed. the circumstances of his life never so fully developed. Such is my respect, my love, sir, for both of the great names before us, that i very reluctantly see them placed in opposition, even for a friendly discussion. I trust bowever, that the present review of their services will only serve to increase our gratitude to them, and to Him who raised them up for our political salvation.

President. Gentlemen, the hour of adjourn ment has arrived; and, much as I regret the necessity of terminating this interesting debate, the constitution imperiously requires that the discussion should be arrested. I intended, gentlemen, to have thrown my mite into the great treasury of Washington's praise, but the remarks of the reverend gentleman who addressed you last, are so fair a summary of the debate, that I forego my intention with less reluctance Are you ready for the quest.on of adjournment?

Mr. Slack. I move, sir, that, before the meeting be adjourned, the sense of the meeting be taken upon the question.

Mons. Bonjour. I will be de gentilman's second.

President. If it be your minds, gentlemen, that the opinion of this meeting upon the subject of debate be now expressed in the usual way, you will please to make it manifest. [All hands up.] President. It is a vote, gentlemen. Such of you, and of our respected audience, as are of opinion that Lafayette was, on the whole, a greater man than Washington, will please to siguify it by holding up your hands.

[Mons. Bonjour stands up alone, and says.] Mons. Bonjour. Je le crois, Monsieur le President, je le crois, je le crois! Vive le grand Lafayette!

President. Those who are of opinion that Washington was, on the whole, the greater man, will please to signify it. [All hands up, and some cry out, All up! All up!]

Mr. Bunker. I move you, sir, that we give three cheers to the united memories of the great Lafayette and the great Washington.

Mons. Bonjour. Ma foi! I shall tree cheer bote de grands hommes wid hall my art. Vive le grand Washington! vive le grand Lafayette! [Then all give three cheers.} Mr. Slack. I now move, sir, that this meeting be adjourned.

Mr. King. I second the motion.

President. If it be your minds now to adjourn to the time and place appointed in the constitution, you will please to signify it. [All up.]

President. [Looking at the audience.] I then declare this meeting to be adjourned.

(F. F. D.)

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